Hello all,
I am fairly new to woodworking, and have been trying to hone and burnish my new card scraper. I watched the FW video, and followed the directions faithfully (except I used sandpaper instead of stones), but can’t seem to get a good bur. I did notice that if I used my burnisher several more times than the video recommended, and with more force, that I saw some improvement. (I am a woman, so I may not have been applying enough force the first time). I’ve been checking it with a loupe as I go, and I’m not seeing what the pictures show at all……
Any suggestions?
Maril
Replies
The burr will be barely visible with a 10X loupe. If you're not seeing what the pictures are showing, what are you seeing? Using sandpaper could be a problem, as you're much more likely to round over the edge that way. You really need a flat, flat, flat edge in order to easily turn the burr.
Very fine wet-or-dry silicon carbide paper (600 grit or higher), firmly adhered to a flat surface (e.g., spray adhesive on a glass plate) would probably work fine.
-Steve
Thanks for your response,
I have been using up to 600 grit silicon carbide sandpaper mounted on plate glass to hone the edges, and with my 10x loupe I see a flat edge, no bur. I use a block of wood to hold the card at 90 degrees while I hone. Perhaps my loupe isn't strong enough. When I try the scraper on wood, I get a very small amount of shavings and dust. After the latest round of burnishing and burnishing, I'm getting more shavings than dust, but not much. Maybe I'm not using the scraper with enough force..... I don't know.
One thing I noticed, on the video, the author doesn't use the burnisher on the sides of the scraper, only on the cutting edge. In the PDF article, it instructs you to burnish the sides, and then burnish the cutting edge. I'm confused.
You need to polish all 3 sides of the card scraper to the same mirror-like finish. Scratches in the steel of the scraper will appear as gaps in the burr, weakening it.
You need to "roll" the burr out on the flat surface first, and a large amount of pressure is not necessary. 3 or 4 even-pressured strokes along the flat end, first.
Then, with the scraper held vertically in vise, 3 swipes with the burnisher to 'roll' the burr perpendicular to the side, and then 3 more at a drop of about 10° to 15° down from horizontal, to complete the burr at the proper angle, so that when you use the scraper, it's tilted away from you (with a push stroke), using your thumbs to bend the scraper away from you, ever so slightly.
It's probably just a situation where you need some practice. Keep at it.
Jeff
There are many ways to turn a burr, so don't be alarmed that none of the "This is the way to do it and it's the only way that works" descriptions ever agree. I don't burnish the flat sides of a card scraper. The burr that I get is smaller, but--in my opinion--more evenly formed.
After honing the edges and faces flat, is the edge sharp to the touch? You should be able to cut your finger on it (but don't try to do that...). In fact, you should be able to use the scraper without turning a burr at all, although you'll get mostly dust that way.
Are you using a touch of oil when you turn the burr? It should really only take a few strokes with the burnisher (I think Brian Boggs in his video only does one or two strokes), and while you need to press firmly, you shouldn't have to bear down with all of your strength. In my experience, getting the angle of the burnisher with respect to the edge right is more important than brute force.
-Steve
I have had very similar experiences trying to raise a good burr on my card scraper. All the literature seems to indicate that only a very light pass is needed to raise a burr. I've seen videos of someone just holding the scraper in one hand and using the other hand to run the burnisher along the edge. I myself have to rub very hard before I get any feeling of a burr. Even then, I often only get fine sawdust when scraping a surface.
"I myself have to rub very hard before I get any feeling of a burr."
Part of that is just the variation from one manufacturer to another in the hardness of the steel in the scraper. Naturally, a harder scraper requires more pressure.
Another point that's often overlooked is that when filing and stoning, it is important to remove all of the metal that made up the previous burr. That steel is work-hardened, full of defects and won't hold an edge.
-Steve
Thank you for your advice,
I'm going back out to the garage now to give it another go.
Maril
It's not a question of strength - in fact, when I started using scrapers I put far too much force on the scraper as I was turning my burr.
One of the best articles on scraper sharpening was written by Christopher Schwartz in Popular Woodworking. Here is the link...
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/articledisplay?id=14549
If you search their site for scraper you'll see about 4 articles on this subject. Hope that this helps.
Mike D
P.S. If you see an article on woodworking by Christopher Schwartz, it's almost always worth reading. He approaches things with a great mix of technical proficiency and downright practically that I find very readable, sensible, and useful. If fact, were he ever to publish a book on "best methods of work in the woodshop", I'd buy it.
Edited 1/13/2008 11:34 am ET by Mike_D
If you're still having problems, sandpaper sharpening is notorious for dubbing edges. You need crisp edges to turn your burr. I assume you have a single cut file available so before you spend any money on a different sharpening system, try this:Draw file your scraper's edge and face. This is done by orienting the length of the file at 90º to the stroke and it will leave a pretty good surface. You don't need a lot of pressure on the file and you only need to do the face near the edge. To do the face lay the file across the face in the draw filing orientation and put slight pressure next to the edge of the scraper. If you're draw filing properly, the shavings should resemble very fine steel wool.After you have a crisp arris or edge then go back to your burnisher and see what kind of burr you can raise.
I'm going to give this a try before I dish out for some diamond plates. I have been using a double cut bastard file, do you think a single cut file will make a difference?
Maril
Maril,A single cut file cuts with what's basically long scraping teeth and double cut files have points or teeth where the cuts intersect. A single cut file will cut slower than a double cut but leave a finer surface. You want a finer surface in this case.
You do need oil as Jeff suggested, but you're not changing oil and filter in your car. I simply reach up and wipe my finger across my fore-head or grab my ear for natural oil we humans produce. Then wipe it on the surface of the scaper.
Just a little dab-a-do-ya! ha.. ha...
Sarge..
I use a small mill file in a Veritas jig to flatten the top, then the sides. I don't polish anything as I feel it's not necessary. Then a couple of very firm but not over-over-powering swipes with a burnisher at a 5 degree angle. Until you get the feel for 5 degrees (5 degrees is median angle that is not fine nor over aggressive) one of the Veritas burnishing jigs would probably help as it takes the guess-work out. They can be set to any angle you find suitable to what you want to achieve.
Forget the magnification thingy IMO... just test it on scrap and make sure the scrap is hard-wood. You won't get the same results on soft-wood with a hand scraper as hard-wood. At first you just have to keep tinkering till you hit your bull-eye as various scrapers have various degrees of hardness in the metal.
The same amount of pressure applied with the burnisher on a Bahco (formerly Sandvik.. where are the good ole days) is not the same as say a scraper acquired from Veritas. BTW.. I cut my teeth on Sandvik years ago and loved em, but I prefer the Veritas over the current Bahco now offered after the buy-out. But that is just a matter of preference as you can make a scraper from a simple piece of flat steel if you chose.
As with Dove-tails... just practice till you find the winning combo. Again forget the magnification as results of the scraper on hard-wood will let you know when you hit pay-dirt. Expect very fine shavings. Also vary the angle you hold it when pulling or pushing (whichever you prefer) to get various results as skewing, etc. changes the angle of the burr.
And another note.. when you get application of a burr settled, one of the Veritas scraper holders is great. An adjusting screw in the center allows you to flex the scraper to the angle you want and it stays there. It is much easier on your hands and you won't feel the heat as you would holding by hand.
I use a hand scraper on every project and usually have to de-burr when the edge shows signs of wear and put a new edge on. A burr won't last forever when you frequently put it to use as I do. A scraper is probably my most used tool outside an old school style pencil sharpener.
Good luck ma'am...
Sarge..
Agreed on the Sandivk scrapers, I have a box full of them and would have bought more if I’d known they were going to change. The next best are the ones I make from old saw blades. I think all the new ones by L-V etc are far too hard.
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I’m a huge fan of old fashioned oil stones and for prepping a card scraper nothing works better. I still use an old chisel to turn the burr, as I learned how to from Tage Frid at one of his seminars.
I got tipped by the guys at Highland Woodworking years ago before the merger and "rat-holed" 6 of them which will probably last till eternity. And I do agree the LV is harder even though they do have two thicknesses now to chose from. At least I think I saw that while looking for something else related?
I actually have both and use both, depending on what I am doing as it virtually eliminates the sanding step of 120 grit paper. And depending on what, the scraper is the final step before finish on some needs. It's simply a hand plane with no moving parts as I see it.
Sarge..
Napie
Another cheap burnisher is automobile valve stems. I have seen other guys use them so I tried a couple. They are about as hard as you could want and they are quite smooth. The price is right.
dan
I have had the same experience as you mentioned. I have kept with it and finally after a number of hours of practice my scraper began to work as promised. I know use sand paper very little. I would advise you to invest in a diamond plate. I tried sandpaper, waterstones and diamonds. Sandpaper works but not in all situations and scrapers is one where it does not work well. Keep at it you will not be sorry.
It costs to learn woodworking but it eventually pays off.
Mr. Lynn Roy Porter
Well, I tried it again, getting lots of fine powdery wood dust! I refuse to give up. I shall heed your advise, invest in a diamond plate or 2, and keep at it until I win.
Man, you are not kidding about how much it costs to learn woodworking! I haven't had the luxury of a family member or friend with tools and knowledge, so starting from scratch is hitting my wallet hard. I don't know how young people starting out can afford to do it. Of course, no one wants to buy cheap tools either, and the good ones are a whole lot more expensive in the short run, as I'm sure you all know!
All that being said, this is the most fun and frustration I've had in a long time! I am just putting a finish on my first major project, a mahogany and maple coffee table, and it came out pretty good.
Maril
Edited 1/13/2008 1:33 pm ET by marsto45
Maril, you mention fine powdery wood dust: what timber are you scraping?Philip Marcou
I use sandpaper and a granite surface plate for sharpening everything...except my scrapers!!! I just can not get a flat square edge on sandpaper. This is the only place where I feel I must use a sharpening stone, after draw filing the edge.
The best way to check for the turned edge is by feel (IMO). You should be able to feel the turned burr with your fingernail. It should just catch as you scrape your nail across the surface and edge.
Beyond that, I agree with what everybody else is telling you. Keep at it, you'll get it. This is one case where less is more. Couple of light strokes with the burnisher should do it. Don't forget the oil, it's important. Good luck. Soon you'll be getting gossamer thin shavings, then you are THERE and you can throw your sandpaper away, you won't need to sand wood (much) anymore.
Jeff
Lee Valley makes a wonderful jig that holds a file so the edge is square (most important, and probably the source of your problem). After using the jig use a stone to hone it, and then turn the burr. Not much pressure is required because you don't want to roll the burr over so it won't cut.
Your first mistake was using the sandpaper. Stones are bad news too. Use a file. A fine cut file is best but bastard cut can be used. Second mistake was WAAAAYYY TOOO MUCH PRESSURE!!!! Proper burnishing actually requires a surprisingly small force... the full weight of your forearm is likely too much. Excess force will fracture the burr and create jagged teeth on the edge. I have never got a decent edge from a stone or sandpaper. I won't go so far as to suggest that it cannot be done, but it must be extremely difficult. I will say that I have no problem at all sharpening my scrapers with my files and burnisher alone. I have not personally ever seen anyone who successfully sharpened one with a stone and burnisher only.
Third suggestion is to make sure that you draw your edges with your burnisher before turning the burr. This is done by running the burnisher over both flat sides of the scraper with just a very slight tilt downward at the outer edge. This step mainly just smooths any roughness from the filing so that the edge will burr smoothly. It is common for a file sharpened scraper to turn out sharper on one side of the edge than the other. This is a minor problem and can be overlooked but I do try to get mine as evenly sharpened as possible. Hold the file so that it cuts the edge as squarely as you can judge it and try to run the angle of the file teeth at a perpendicular to the length of the edge. A single cut file is much better than double cuts but in a pinch I have used either successfully.
What are you using to turn the burr?
John White
Thank you so much for all your advice. You have all been most helpful. Back to the store for a finer file and some stones I guess.....BTW, I've been using an actual burnisher from Rockler to turn the bur, and testing the scraper on Mahogany and poplar.
Maril
Edited 1/14/2008 6:35 pm ET by marsto45
Maril,The reason I asked about your burnisher is that a burnisher with a large rounded surface doesn't turn an edge nearly as easily as a burnisher with a small radius. For many years I have used a burnisher made from an old triangular file with the teeth ground off. The slightly rounded corners of the file turn a burr with very little pressure.John White
John, do you find that you are able to 're-turn' a new burr several times before having to entirely redress the edge again? I see this as recommended in the Tage Frid video that accompanies his book set, but I don't know what the real world experience/success is. By the way, IIRC, Tage used the side edge of a hand chisel to turn his burr on the scraper, that would be similar to the small radius on your ground smoothed triangular file. Hmmmm. Great minds think alike?Jeff
My "real world" experience is that you can re-burr a scraper a number of times before re-sharpening. And a chisel, or gouge, will work for burnishing, but they usually aren't quite as hard as the real thing.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
You can almost always flatten and then return a burr on a scraper at least once and even a third time. The second burr will usually be more pronounced and cut more aggressively but will usually not leave as nice a surface as the first burr. I like to use the scrapers with returned burrs for aggressive stock removal and for removing old finishes.
I keep a few scrapers at my bench, usually one will have a new fine burr for finishing while the others will have reworked burrs for rougher more aggressive work. When the scraper with the fine edge is worn out, I'll return it and then file down the most worn out scraper and put a fresh new edge on it for fine work.
Using a ground smooth triangular file, or the edge of a chisel, for a burnisher was a common practice years ago before tool companies started making burnishers to sell.
I not sure what I learned from Tage Frid, versus other sources, but I learned a lot of great stuff from his books, and I think I first learned about scrapers from something he wrote in an early issue of FWW.
John W.
I received Tage Frid's three volume set for Christmas year before last, and have read them cover to cover. Probably watched his video 4 or 5 times. I have enjoyed them a great deal. Hopefully, some of the wisdom and knowledge has stuck in my brain. In fact, I can say the same about all of the Taunton books I have. I read one book by Andy Rae that was just a revelation, truly changed how I go about my workmanship. I wish I had the time and money to take a year or two and mentor with one of the masters. What a great experience that would be, I can only imagine what lessons would be learned just by association. But...one must eat and pay the mortgage....Back to scrapers, I would speculate that the second burr is more aggressive because it's probably more of a saw toothed edge...just a guess. Thanks for the response.Jeff
The second burr is both a bit ragged and also distinctly larger.
John W.
I've been using the same edge on my scraper for the last few days, the more I lay it down and turn the curl back up, the better it gets. Part of it may be my technique, I also use a triangular burnisher, by Kunz, but don't accentuate the turn with the edge of the burnisher. I also pull the burr with three or four light, quick strokes, rather than a heavy single pull. I do burnish a dozen strokes on the flat to lay the burr down. I think this smoothes up the edge, removing nicks and roughness. It was working so well this morning, I wish I had more to do.Getting a consistent burr on a scraper isn't easy. There are times that I pull one up and it's practically useless. There is no doubt when you get it correct. The angle it's held when working is also very important. The original poster mentioned she was trying it out on poplar. Even the best burr doesn't cut poplar like open grained species.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
I use the same technique as you do for creating a burr and then renewing it. I think that the quality of the second burr is somewhat dependent on the type of steel in the scraper. With some steels the reworked edge becomes brittle and fractures easily.
I have also found that if one burr on a scraper doesn't seem to work well in a specific application, another one on the same tool, that should be about the same, will work better for no obvious reason. Softer woods, in general, don't scrape as well as harder woods, but a dense hard pine, my favorite wood, is a joy to work with a sharp scraper.
John W.
John, not to get off-topic, but what species of pine do you consider dense and hard, and how readily available is it?Norman
I just go through the piles of white pine at the lumber yards looking for the dark resinous boards with close spaced rings. Sometimes there aren't any, but sometimes I get lucky. I grab them whenever I can, and keep a stash. The local white pine here in New England is generally very light with wide rings. I believe that the nice stuff comes from the western U.S. and Canada.
John W.
Southern yellow pine (longleaf pine, in particular, although it's rarely separated out from the mix) is the hardest of the commercially available pines, between poplar and cherry in hardness. It's also ones of the stiffest woods, and is very dense as well.
In the Northwest, Douglas-fir (which, despite the name, is more closely related to pines than firs) is comparable in hardness and stiffness, but lighter.
In the Northeast, you might be able to find tamarack, which is the hardest softwood there is (harder than most hardwoods, in fact). But it's not commonly available.
The one problem with all of these woods is that you can typically only get them as dimensioned construction-grade boards, which means that they're often pretty wet and need some acclimation for a few months before they finally settle down. Here in Ohio, I've been able to get some nice boards out of SYP 2x12 joist material.
-Steve
Thanks, Steve. I was reading Chris Schwarz's new workbench book, and he recommends SYP for workbenches, because it's abundant and affordable where he is (southern Ohio, I think), but I can't seem to find much of it around me here.
Where are you located? I am in southeastern Ohio (Chris Schwarz is in southwestern Ohio). The regional chain lumberyard (Carter Lumber) carries SYP 2X10 and 2X12 joists, but not smaller stuff. The local Lowe's doesn't carry SYP at all (except pressure-treated). The not-quite-so-local Home Depot does.
Back when I lived in Oklahoma, I could easily get SYP in all shapes and sizes.
-Steve
Steve, I'm in Mass. I haven't really worked the phone on this yet, but I haven't seen any at the local HD and Lowes, and I didn't see any at my local hardwood dealer last time I was there. Maybe they can get it for me, though, or maybe they have it in another shed on the property. I'm not ready to start building the bench yet, so I haven't pursued it that hard yet. I just wonder whether, given what it costs to get the stuff to New England, it might not be such a great deal and might even be close to maple in price. I have zero experience with SYP.
Edited 1/16/2008 10:41 am ET by nboucher
See, now you have another reason to get out of that frozen backwoods known as New England. ;-)
New England is probably the worst place to be if you're looking for SYP. What do the local home builders use for floor joists? Whatever they use would probably be your best bet for the optimal cost/stiffness tradeoff.
-Steve
Typically the joist material sold in New England is Douglas fir which will make an excellent bench top, I prefer it to SYP.
John White
Good tip. Thanks, John.
Steve,
Thanks for the info. on tamarack. There's quite a bit of standing tamarack around me. I'll have to get some to my sawyer for a go with it.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
It's supposed to be rot-resistant, too, but can be difficult to work since it's so !@#$% hard.
-Steve
Steve,
I've since found that it is a larch or at least a member of the larch family (sic). Also, it has been suggested that it be milled from top to bottom as when cutting it from bottom up, it tends to split or crumble easily.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
That's correct; it's in the same genus (Larix) as the other larches. But it's the hardest of them all (at least of the North American species).
-Steve
I was fortunate to have attended one of Tage Frid’s seminars many years ago and have enjoyed sharp scrapers ever since. I also use an old chisel to turn the burr and I am able to get at least two turns from a dressed edge, often three. Frid’s books taught me more about woodworking than anything I have read before or since. My autographed copy of the first book, (Joinery), is a treasure to me. His very practical approach to his craft and the simplicity he exercised have been guiding principles. Every time some new wiz-bang sharpening system comes out I can just see him grinding his chisels on a Porter Cable belt sander clamped in a vice……
Isn't that a hoot! Everytime I read a thread about tedious methods to sharpen a chisel, I think about that. Tage was all about making money with his woodworking. That's not to say his work wasn't spectacular, but he didn't fritter valuable time away on stuff that didn't matter. I have the impression he was a no nonsense kind of guy in the shop. I especially enjoyed watching his video on cutting dovetails by hand. The man was really something, I wish I could have met him....
Jeff
Click here for another how-to tutorial on sharpening a card scraper. I have been in Tom's shop and used one of his scrapers (better yet, watched him use one) and they work just great.
I was using my card scraper yesterday and took some pictures that might help. To begin, I use an 8" mill bastard file. This is called draw filing. You hold the file perpendicular to the scraper and push the file away from you. It should only take two passes. The steel will come off in a fine wire. In the first picture, there is a hand saw jointer. I sometimes use this to straighten out the scraper, but not for sharpening.
Once the edge has been draw filed, I lay the scraper flat, near the edge of the bench. I then burnish flat ways. This is similar to the way a butcher uses a knife steel. It lays the edge down and amalgamates the scraper into a very sharp edge. At this stage you should be able to feel an extremely sharp edge, don't slide your fingers along it!
The next step is to turn that edge into a curl. Some do it with a single firm stroke, others work it up with multiple light passes. On the last strokes, I'm holding the burnisher at about a 10° angle. This is the same angle that you hold the scraper when working. You can burnish the curl back to flat and re-work it up several times without filing again. If you can't get it right the first time, lay it down and try again.
Scrapers work best on open grain hardwoods. You won't have much success shaving pine. The angle you hold the scraper is also important. When it is sharp, you can work cross grain or slightly tangential to it. I was flushing up some stile and rail intersections, sure beats sandpaper and machines.
Chris Schwarz, who was mentioned earlier, also has an excellent video on card scrapers that is well worth buying. (You can get it from Lie Nielsen, among other places.) He shows you how to prepare a card scraper without having to buy any jigs. After applying what he teaches in the video, I have no trouble getting just the right burr. Then it's all a matter of technique, of holding scraper at the right angle to get the shavings you're after.
Don't worry: once you get the knack, it's really not that hard, and the card scraper will become one of your most valued hand tools. I don't know what it is, but I find using a card scraper particularly satisfying. Something about its simplicity, I suspect.
Norman
Friends:I have trued the edges on scrapers from time to time with files, but have no trouble getting nice shavings instead of dust with a much simpler sharpening technique. I clamp the trued card into a machinist's vice with only a quarter inch or so showing over the top of the jaws, and then work back and forth the length of the card a few times, more or less perpendicular at first, and then as the bur develops on both sides -- mushrooms actually -- I angle the bur slightly with the burnisher and get to work.This may be all wrong. I am throwing this out as a question as much as a comment. However it seems to work pretty well. What think you experts?Joe
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