Hi All,
As I’ve said, I’m a publisher and writer as well as building furniture. I’ve owned Wood-work.com for several years and we are getting ready to develop it.
Here’s the question: What is missing in the online fine woodworking community? My original intent was to use it for an upscale fine furniture gallery that craftsmen could use to market their work.
I’m not sure if this is desirable in the community, or if there are needs that would be better served. I build fine furniture and upscale pieces on a limited edition basis, but I’m not totally glued to that sector of woodworking.
Shoot me your ideas. What do we need in a website, and why? How would it operate? What benefit do you see yourself, as a craftmen, gaining?
I’m willing to listen to all ideas and thoughts on what we can do with it. Here’s your chance to help design a tool to help you, and all of us, be better craftmen and woodworkers.
thnx
scottd.
Replies
"...upscale fine furniture gallery...." Scott, I have thought for some time now that "we" (the woodworking world) could really benefit by having a central site for displaying our work. My fantasies included organizing it by geographic area, with a good search function. Individual gallery for each member, but probably a consistent design format -- if craftsmen want a fancy, unique site, they could build one of their own and link to it.
I would think you could get sponsors to help with such a site, and if you do a good (read: excellent) job of getting it to show up on the search engines (read: Google, especially), I would be more than willing to pay a fee to have examples of my work on there (though I have yet to produce much, LOL).
[ps, first thing I'd do is replace the font you used for "by Master Furniture Builders....." too hard to read in that size. Sorry if I'm being rude :-)]
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Actually that font is for the print version of the logo. We just put that logo there to give the page something.and no, you're not being rude. Passing on courteous criticism to help is never rude.
You thought was my original idea: a central gallery for furniture and upscale wood art pieces. I intentionally excluded "crafty" type woodwork. Not because it's less skillful or a lesser part of the woodworking craft, but because my intent was to make it more of a gallery type portal.I appreciate your input.
thnxscottd.
I totally agree about leaving out the craftsy-type WWing -- focus is important.
I hope thing go well on this project. It sounds very exciting.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I think that you are on the right track by limiting the work shown to gallery quality pieces. You also should charge those who want to display their work and come up with a set of criteria that the craftsmen/women should meet. Perhaps a proof of buisiness or something.
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
Scott,
How will your proposed site differ from a site such as http://www.custommade.com?
Regards,
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting
Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
There isn't a "proposed site" yet. That's what I'm deciding: What will the proposed site be?But my initial thought was a gallery for fine furniture builders. The premise of how it would operate is not yet in place. That's why I was looking for input from others in the field as to what we need to address.As far as the other site you mention, I'm not familiar with it. It's probably a fine site. The only difference may be that this new portal will be developed by my company, so it will be a professional development (not that the other site isn't, again, I'm not familiar with it), and it will be run as a business in conjunction with our company, rather than a hobby website. Instead of looking at what's already available, is there something that you feel would benefit you that is not available?
thnxscottd.
I think Bill's point is well-taken. It's always a good idea to see what "the other guys" are doing. I took a brief look at that site, and while the content may be OK, there doesn't appear to be a great deal of participation, and I thought the design of the home page was pretty hoakey.
It sounds like you're pretty oriented toward the gallery idea. Should this present discussion focus on "How would it operate? What benefit do you see yourself, as a craftmen, gaining?" or do you want to first sift through ideas other than building an on-line gallery? forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
If people have another idea, I'd love to hear it.If people have ideas of how to make a gallery site work for professional furniture builders, I'll be happy to discuss those ideas as well.The reason I had started with "gallery" is that I didn't see a really good one that was professional, and I'm starting another line of furniture from my shop, so I'm looking to develop this site now.The ones that are out there, excluding this one listed with which I am not familiar, are hobby sites. They are done "on the side". There is not a company behind them, it's a website business run through an email address and an ecommerce connection.I also had not seen much support from quality furniture builders and shops. If the support is there, and I get good feedback on what professional builders feel is important, we'll put together a quality package.I know what I want as a professional builder: A professional development that's not ameteurish; a company running it; a general phone number to call for contact information and questions; email communication with gallery members and the company; very high quality pictures; the ability to use the gallery company to help me make a portfolio of my work for potential customers; the gallery company help to make a press kit; high quality large scale printing of my work for advertising and marketing use; advertising and marketing material design, layout, and printing... those are a few of the things I think are important.What do you think?
thnxscottd.
Wow, you're way ahead of me with the last paragraph, I hadn't thought of half of the marketing support you mentioned.
"I also had not seen much support from quality furniture builders and shops." This may be the place to start -- answering the question "Why?"forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Oh my, to say that custommade.com site looks "pretty hoakey" is being *very* polite.
To my eyes, it should "go off the air" until the folks can afford *professional* help -- design help, that is :-) I can not imagine that hoplessly amateurish-looking page is ever going to inspire any shoppers to even look, much less buy. (I sure hope that those folks listed there didn't *pay* to be there.)
But you know what? According to reports on CNN this morning, Internet Sales of goods and services are on a *big* upswing. So a well-done professional-looking "slick" site could well be a great portal. But it HAS to be professional-looking or ...
BTW, have you ever seen http://www.australianwoodart.com/ ? That's a site that reflects the caliber of the craftsman!-- Steve
Enjoy life & do well by it;
http://www.ApacheTrail.com/ww/
Scott,
Your proposed site sounds identical to http://www.custommade.com, that's why I mentioned it. It was recently brought to my attention by a fellow woodworker and I may take a basic listing with them at some point. Your home page is more impressive, but that's an item easy to change. As FG said, it's always best to know your competition.
Regards,
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
Thanks for posting that link, Bill. I didn't know about that site. Can't say their Home Page impressed me very much, but the idea is a good one. My intuitive feeling is that the Wood-Work.com site, if he decides to go with a gallery, would probably have a more professional and sophisticated look and feel to it.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
"Thanks for posting that link, Bill. I didn't know about that site. Can't say their Home Page impressed me very much, but the idea is a good one. My intuitive feeling is that the Wood-Work.com site, if he decides to go with a gallery, would probably have a more professional and sophisticated look and feel to it."
Jamie,
I recently learned about custommade.com from another woodworker. Since I have my own website, I see no great value in paying someone else to post photos of my work. Additional exposure with a link to my site may be of some value, depending on the cost. There are probably other similar sites out there as well.
The appearance of custommade.com could be improved, I agree. Maybe I'll offer to assist in my spare time -- yeah, right...
Regards,
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
Hi Bill. The value of having your work featured on another web site, such as customade, would be the "additional exposure." One would expect that that type of site would get many, many more hits than an individual site. Of course, if you've managed your web site to get a very high hit-count on Google, etc., then you may not need it.
For someone like me, who has owned a URL for years and not done anything with it, this gallery-type central site would probably be just the ticket! Of course, much depends on the cost. Advertising money is always so hard to come up with, yet so important.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Given the relative low cost of maintaining a web site these days would you really rather forgo showing your work exclusively on your own site vs. showing your work against your business competitors on a common site (no matter how friendly and supportive)?
Edited 1/18/2005 12:42 pm ET by BossCrunk
A web site's profitability depends a great deal on how many visitors it attracts. The advantage to having a nationwide gallery is that if it shows up at the top of the search results, it will get excellent exposure, which translates to more exposure for individual woodworkers in a given geographical area.
A "spot" in such a nationwide gallery would then link to the individual's web site. Having that spot does not "forgo showing your work exclusively on your own site." It's simply another advertising venue. Anyone not seeing the value of internet exposure in big numbers is sorely underestimating the extent to which people browse the web whenever they're thinking about buying or ordering something.
If a given craftsman is so insecure about the drawing-power of his/her work that s/he is afraid to have it side-by-side with others' work, that's a problem. Each quality craftsman is going to have pieces that are attractive to different clientele, and the more people who see it the more likely they are to get business. Trying to insulate yourself from the rest of the woodworking world I believe is counterproductive and probably leads, ultimately, to "badmouthing" the competition. It's an extreme behavior, but it's one that sends me packing, as a consumer.
Such a venue (on-line gallery) is simply a modern-day version of the street galleries in big cities. I know several people who do or have displayed in the big gallery in downtown Seattle, and it certainly pays off vis a vis the contacts made with customers and the future orders it can bring in.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
As a corollary to your description of the competitor that insulates himself in the marketplace, there are the craftsmen that provide links to their peers so that the consumer can openly compare their work to others. I find myself going back to those sites repeatedly, and as a consumer, they have my gratitude and first consideration.Case in point: Sauer & Steiner, Toolworks; their links page.http://www.sauerandsteiner.com/makers.htmTom
That's very true and I do the same thing. Nice point.
scottd.scottdDamschroder Scott Furniture[email protected]A craftsman needs three things: Accuracy, Technique, and Quality. Accuracy can be set; technique can be learned; but quality must be bought and built.
Wow, you have an active imagination and a flair for making assumptions. From insecurity to bad mouthing the competition, to insular behavior. That's quite a stretch.
And as Lee pointed out these kinds of sites have been around for a while. I assume that Scott knows this and is *hopefully* trying to come up with a new twist, however his response to me indicates that maybe not. This online marketplace idea has been tried before. I'm fairly sure there are some sites still around.
I'm old school - I don't have a website. I live in a decent sized city and show a traditional portfolio to prospects. If I lived in a rural area and depended on sales in other parts of the country I suppose I would need one. As I've said in other posts, I tip my hat to pros who don't have access to a decent sized market to tap. I don't know how you do it. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to have somebody clear across country pull the trigger on a several thousand dollar commission unless you have some serious name recognition (the late Maloof and Frid, James Krenov, et al.)
Jamie, there are a few guilds active in the U.S. with websites displaying guild members' work. However, one has to be juried into the guild. Does this sound like something you'd be interested in are you looking for something a little less, well, demanding?
What these guilds somewhat 'guarantee' potential purchasers beyond well executed work is a pro furnituremaker with a track record and general wherewithal - somebody who's not likely to fold up their tent in the middle of a 25K commission. In other words, you can't get juried in on good woodworking alone. Buyers need some kind of protection.
I also agree with every word that Lee wrote in his post above, especially the following:
I have a statistics page that tells me where my web traffic comes from and never, never has a online gallery been in the top twenty.
The unfortunate thing is that furniture makers with the status to be headliners are not in a position to need to share commissions.
Edited 1/19/2005 12:43 pm ET by BossCrunk
Have you been talking to my daughter, Bill???? She sent me the link to that website this morning and says I should sign up. - lol
"Have you been talking to my daughter, Bill???? She sent me the link to that website this morning and says I should sign up. - lol"
Darn it all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We were trying to keep the relationship a secret! ROFLMAO
Actually, I signed up on CustomMade.com earlier today. I've had a couple of good reports and, as they say, "it can't hurt".
Take care.
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
I may give it a go, myself. I looked at their listings for Northern California and there's only one shop within 75 miles of San Jose. Even one job would cover the cost.
I've been doing pretty well using Craigslist postings, but I have to re-post every 10 days and then work my way thru 4-5 "looky-loos" to get one real customer. One guy called and said he just wanted some cheap bookcases. I think he got a little miffed when I told him that I didn't make cheap stuff since companies like Ikea had already cornered the market.
The whole thing may become academic, anyway. Two years ago, I ran a job putting in four miles of fiber optic cable for a telecom company out of L.A.. Last week, they called and want me to do another one for them. I'm not really a hooker, but I CAN be tempted by the rustling sound of green pieces of paper with pictures of dead politicians. - lol
By the way, dude...............you're too damned old for my daughter!!! LMAO!
Edited 1/21/2005 6:31 pm ET by Dave
"... By the way, dude...............you're too damned old for my daughter!!! LMAO! ..."
10-4, Good Buddy! I feel the shotgun in my ribs already!!!
:-)
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
I have been using custommade.com for over a year with great results. I feel the overall idea and concept is great but it needs refining. It needs a slightly more professional look. It does appear kindof hokey in a way. The site you are proposing still needs to look like a woodworking site though. I looked at yours and it just doesn't look like a woodworking site to me. Not to say it is not nice, or attractive, I just don't think potential clients will open your site and feel that they are in the right place. I have noticed that too many individual woodworkers sites do not have the right look. They often use fancy or really colorful menus and look like a video game or computer programmers site not a place to buy fine furniture or art woodworking.
Custommade.com although kinda hokey, conveys the right message and feel immediately. I will also say I like how custommade.com is organized with links to woodworkers by geographic location, specialty, and style. I would definitely do the same. It would be good to have some kind of real time gallery with pieces completed for sale. I don't know if an Ebay bidding type feature would work but something maybe along those lines.
Also the owner of custommade.com is very helpful and quick to change or add new pictures or information. For me as a custom furniture maker/business owner, his promptness and personal attention are very helpful and important.
I hope this helps. Keep me posted on the progress of your site and count me in for listing when you are ready.
Robby Phelps
Edited 1/18/2005 4:16 am ET by Robby
Ronny, I haven't been to the site and I'm sure it is excellent. I commend them on good work, as it appears you are happy. If they are doing well, that is wonderful and there are far too many customers for just two sites anyway.As for our homepage, it's just an extension of our publishing business website, since we haven't developed it yet, it mirrors our normal website look and feel.
So the look and feel of wood-work.com isn't defined yet, however, it will be within the look and feel of upscale buyers looking for professional furniture, wood art pieces, or to find a builder to commission a piece. I'm glad you are successful with your activities and would never work to change that. This was not a post to gain business, just to gain insite from builders.Keep up the good work.
thnxscottd.
I can see why you have good results on custommade.com. They rank high on the search engines with keywords such as "custom made furniture". This in my opinion only comes with time and good link exchange. I have often thought that if I ever had the time to build some spec pieces that I would try listing on that site. I'm glad to see that you are getting great results.
Garry http://www.superwoodworks.com
I doubt those serious about making money selling custom furniture will want to display against others similarly situated. It's tough enough getting commissions without your competition being but a mouse click or two away. There are a lot of fine craftspeople vying for a very, very small market.
There are oodles of discussion boards so that opportunity has been missed.
Not really sure what you can do with the site.
I understand your thinking, however, it's much like the business that stays away from the trade show because competition will be there at another booth.In the makeup of an industry, there will be one or two players who will stay away from the competition thinking that they are keeping themselves distanced, when in reality they loose far more than they gain.Buyers choose based on many factors: Regionality, building style, price, specific piece capability, finish, etc. You're bound to gain exposure and attract buyers through your general business associations, more than you are to lose them.Now granted, you don't have to tell the next guy how you got that beautiful hand rubbed finish, but in the context of the custom building furniture business, we do that anyway. We share and talk and answer questions of our newer entrants; just like in most other industries. A couple things you said I would have to respectfully disagree with:"The market is small" - No, it's a huge diverse market. It entails all prices ranges, furniture styles, and types of furniture; as well as wood art pieces, reproduction furniture, and commissions. That doesn't include corporate commissions, which also accounts for a fairly large market."The serious about selling custom furniture will not be interested" - I think that the opposite will be true. Given a professional operation, the ones who won't show are the ones who will be intimidated by the quality players. Which is too bad, because there needs to be representation of the entire market segents from lower price, very high quality work, to the elite work that is afforded by very exclusive buyers.Don't hide yourself to compete. Show it off and you'll be surprised at the gains in recognition of your work, and the customers you will find. I look forward to seeing your work, I'm sure you are at the top of our class. I always find it a great learning experience to be among my more talented piers, as well I like to hang out with people who do work I would like to be able to do. Over time, I find I climb to their level.thnxscottd.scottdDamschroder Scott Furniture[email protected]A craftsman needs three things: Accuracy, Technique, and Quality. Accuracy can be set; technique can be learned; but quality must be bought and built.
Thank you, Scott, for your post. It eloquently puts into words what I could only feel on an intuitive basis. Remiscent of the days when our Island restaurants used to totally insulate themselves from each other and (at their worst) backstab the other guy. NOT a good idea. By touting the whole island as "a great place to eat," putting themselves on the concierge tour, and becomig marketable as a whole, their business is much better than it would be otherwise. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I agree with FG about the script type, however, I'd stick with an established logotype also.
That you have. So, I'd enlarge it to about 125% of what's on the site now, to make it more readable.
I don't know what programme you used to set it, but if you've got either CorelDraw or PageMaker you can specify the set (tight, etc) and open or close it up that way. You can also kern individual letter pairs/sets with either.
As far as script typefaces go (I'm none too fond of them myself) you've got one of the more readable ones in your logotype.
Insofar as design goes, you've selected a rather formal face, which goes well with the idea of established, traditional craftsmanship. I'd have used something like Baskerville instead of the Bodoni style face used in all caps, reasoning being that (1) Baskerville is more or less period with Hepplewhite & Sheraton, etc., and (2) it's more readable than a Bodoni style face.
FWIW, I was a graphic designer for several years and still keep my hand in by doing graphics for our local SF convention.
I like the idea of a gallery site, BTW.
Regards,
Thanks Leon. I appreciate your take on the logo. We are planning on making some adjustments to it, and I fully agree it not as readable as it should be.
It was actually only put there to give the page "something", since we hadn't done anything with the wood-work.com site yet, but this feedback on the fonts has been good.
I'm glad you like the idea of a gallery site. There have been no other suggestions and there seems to be support for it, so we may move along with the idea and start development of it.
thnxscottd.
scottdDamschroder Scott Furniture[email protected]A craftsman needs three things: Accuracy, Technique, and Quality. Accuracy can be set; technique can be learned; but quality must be bought and built.
I've tried to stay out of this but restraint has always been one of my most absent virtues.I'm all for this sort of thing but Scott, you're barking up the wrong tree. If your objective is to offer woodworkers webspace to show off their work then you're one of hundreds, literally hundreds out there doing the same thing. Selling this idea to woodworkers is like selling soda pop to Pepsi unless your income is going to come from those listing their work.If you want to make a true go of it you need to find buyers. Buyers are what's missing from this equation, woodworkers are a dime a dozen. You need to establish yourself as a reputable source for furniture and competant furniture makers. How are you going to do that? Skills tests? How are you going to reach buyers? How about decorators? Designers? Architects? Private commissions? How are you going to deal with shoddy work? It'll kill you quickly. How about crummy clients? Are you going to pay the bucks to attend trade shows to promote your site?I've seen lots and lots of attempts like this throughout my years online. I used to list with them. I don't anymore. I have a statistics page that tells me where my web traffic comes from and never, never has a online gallery been in the top twenty.When people shop seriously for furniture they do not enter "furniture makers" in the search engines, they are not looking for furniture makers. They enter the piece they are looking for. So, I'll say it again, woodworkers are a dime a dozen. You'll need to get some high powered luminaries on board to attract buyers because without buyers you're doomed. Who are you going to get to headline your pool of furniture makers? You'll need several headliners so you can go to your pool of buyers with a decent sized carrot. The unfortunate thing is that furniture makers with the status to be headliners are not in a position to need to share commissions.It's a tough nut to crack, Scott. All these woodworkers here are going to cheer you on because they'd love it if you had this group of buyers to support them. If you find the buyers you'll have the world by the tail. So, your queries should be directed at that part of the equation. Find the buyers, Scott. That's your challenge. Ten woodworkers will fall out of every tree on your block if you do that.Lee
Edited 1/19/2005 10:27 am ET by Lee_Grindinger
Good points, all, but let's understand that this "question" I posed was actually framed as a request for "what do we need in the professional furniture builders tools, that we do not currently have, online..."It was not, and is not, a call for business. I was expecting some new ideas. Maybe something off the wall. I had been mulling the gallery thing for a good long while, and still do not know of any good ones.Now, that said again... Your points are true, but I will say I disagree that there are multitudes that are doing this, let alone, any who are doing it well, professionally, or with company support.I found a few, alone, running as websites on email and ecommerce. Basically a website with pictures. None done professionally with any support. If you know of some well supported and marketed sites along this line, pass it on.Your take on marketing and finding buyers is correct, but marketing is not hard, it's just expensive and time consuming. It's very doable. Yes, tradeshows are an options, no question. And yes, I'm more than willing to put my money where my typing fingers are; and have been for years.Find the buyers... that's the second step. First you better have some good builders showcased, and the tools to help buyers choose and communicate need to be in place.As for headliners, your error is that the people we think of as headliners, are not known to the upscale buyer. The grandfather buying a handmade rocker for his son's first child does not know who Sam Maloof is... It hurts me to even say that, but it's true.The galleries job is to showcase the builders and artists, the builders job is still to sell their own goods. Most builders I know are very capable at dealing with buyers, especially the builders in this arena.So your premise is correct, but I think your timeline is backwards... the buyers are the egg. I'm just talking to the chickens (pardon the pun) to see if we want to, or if there is any interest in, the eggs using this method; and if so, how do we do it right.Your points are correct, 100%, and well taken. I think besides finding buyers, which we can do, helping builders is the other side of this game. This is not a proposed "website with pictures", as there are many of them, as you pointed out.Thanks for your input, I appreciate it. Don't skirt the debate, help me define what you need.
thnxscottd.
scottdDamschroder Scott Furniture[email protected]A craftsman needs three things: Accuracy, Technique, and Quality. Accuracy can be set; technique can be learned; but quality must be bought and built.
Your problem, Scott, is that you ask for thoughts and suggestions and then engage in debate when you get them.
Like most "entrepreneurs" who believe they have a novel concept you seem intent on ignoring valuable information from those telling you otherwise. Instead of arguing with Lee and me why don't you simply state what you want to do with some specificity?
You obviously have some strong opinions. This is your baby, tell us what you're going to do with it. I'm not going to starve to death if you don't create this website. Tell me what you're going to do for me. What's the quid pro quo? Space on the internet? Hello... websites are cheap. Storage space is cheap. Registering with search engines is cheap.
Don't let *marginally* professional woodworkers whip you up into a frenzy about your idea. Those gladhanding you are most likely not serving you well and may very well be deluding themselves into believing that something like this is the very thing that will save their own practically failing businesses.
Edited 1/19/2005 4:00 pm ET by BossCrunk
There has been no debate, there has been conversation.In all my posts I have acknowledged your ideas as well taken. They are good points. I just bring up additional considerations to think about, which in turn, usually adds to the ideas.I wan't looking to market this site. I've made that abundantly clear. I was asking for ideas, input, and conversation about what like minded people, doing what I'm doing, thought they needed.As for the site, naturally, I'll make a decision as to what appears to be the best course of action, and at that point, I'll market it.
That marketing won't be done here, as this is a discussion board, not a marketing tool. Anyone who mistook my request for ideas as marketing, my apologies. That was not the intent at all.Let's put a fork in this thread... it's done.
thnxscottd.
scottdDamschroder Scott Furniture[email protected]A craftsman needs three things: Accuracy, Technique, and Quality. Accuracy can be set; technique can be learned; but quality must be bought and built.
Your points are correct, 100%, and well taken. I think besides finding buyers, which we can do, helping builders is the other side of this game. This is not a proposed "website with pictures", as there are many of them, as you pointed out.
Then precisely what is it to be? I noticed a company name of Damschroder Scott Furniture in your tagline - may we have a link to your website? I assume that you are a busy custom furnituremaker. Do you really have time to work on a site like this? Forgive me, but are you hoping a site like this will rescue your own operation? How many years have you been in business? Do you understand the needs of established, professional furnituremakers? Is your business successful? If so, why are you doing this? How do you find the time? Who are you and why would I send you money and pictures of my work? While this may not be a "call for business" you'd better realize that you've posted on a site where you could bloody well get some business. Are you ready for it?
You're also publisher and writer. What is the name of your publishing company? What titles have you published (others work)? What titles have you written yourself? Is all of your work self-published? If not, who published it? Taunton? Sterling? Who?
Frankly, this most likely would be a business a successful gallery owner would be better at running than a professional furnituremaker.
If this is to be a site for those just starting out then say so. If not, tell us who you target market is, the furnituremakers that is - those just starting out with limited resources or established professionals. The two may not be compatible.
Edited 1/19/2005 2:02 pm ET by BossCrunk
Wow... you are apparently someone in a high profile. It appears I need to put together my resume to obtain your approval.My comments and posts have been nothing if not professional, cordial, and conversational. I can't say the same for you.Yes, I'm successful, but it's not necessary for me to justify that to you. Save your attacks for the interested, of which I'm am not.
thnxscottd.
scottdDamschroder Scott Furniture[email protected]A craftsman needs three things: Accuracy, Technique, and Quality. Accuracy can be set; technique can be learned; but quality must be bought and built.
Scott, I honestly wish you well.(Your words) ""what do we need in the professional furniture builders tools, that we do not currently have, online..." Buyers(Your words) "So your premise is correct, but I think your timeline is backwards... the buyers are the egg. I'm just talking to the chickens (pardon the pun) to see if we want to, or if there is any interest in, the eggs using this method; and if so, how do we do it right."Scott, I can assure that finding buyers is going to be far, far more difficult than finding builders. I've had agents of different sorts in the past. The successful ones have clients first, buyers if you will. Then they go out and find tradesmen capable of building what the client needs. The successful galleries I know cater to their buyers, not to the chickens.The gallery's job, one rarely done well, is to educate buyers, negotiate commissions and sell work. This is what they get paid to do and I'll gladly pay commissions of 20% to 50% to any gallery owner or agent doing their job well. I've known far more galleries that found the chickens first, the builders, and the eggs never showed up. In my limited experience I'd suggest you find your buyers first, if you can clear that hurdle you're already home.(Your words) " Don't skirt the debate, help me define what you need."Did I mention it already? Buyers Is that succinct enough? Inspiring woodworkers, Scott, is as difficult as rolling a bowling ball downhill. Enter "furniture makers" into google. Now enter "Commissioned Furniture buyers". Now, you tell me which will be more difficult to find.Truthfully, I hope you have a take on this that will put you over the top. No one here can tell you how to do it, if it were easy everyone would be a funriture maker for a living. I've been hacking away for 30 years and it's just turned around in the past ten. I've used galleries, agents and shows. I've done flyers, mass mailings, web work and advertizing. None stand alone as a means to hook up with clients. It takes a lot of nails to put a lid on a coffin and it takes a lot of nails to promote oneself as a furniture maker. Good luck to you, Scott. I like my eggs sunny side up.Lee
Thanks. Your insight is appreciated, and we'll see where this takes us.
thnxscottd.
scottdDamschroder Scott Furniture[email protected]A craftsman needs three things: Accuracy, Technique, and Quality. Accuracy can be set; technique can be learned; but quality must be bought and built.
Scott, do you have any plans on qualifying your participants other than on their work alone? What kind of assurances do you intend to offer visitors (potential buyers) to the site? Have you looked into the possibility of purchasing some sort of performance bond to cover buyers from somebody who flakes out on a job? I don't know if an insurance company would write a policy on such an organization, but have you checked?
You're going to have to make the site something beyond a place to post pretty pictures as Lee Grindinger has pointed out.
Were I to get motivated about this whole idea, what I would want from a website is some exclusivity. I'd personally be happy to provide evidence of my track record and a list of customers as references assuming you'd be willing to execute a suitable non-disclosure agreement. I would be looking for something quintessentially professional. Without a doubt the woodworking you would show would be outstanding. But you've got to offer me something and my potential customers something too.
I would definitely not want to be a part of a site that exhibits craft show tchochkes, no matter how well executed. I would strongly suggest a $1,000 to $1,500 minimum price (heck, maybe higher) on all work displayed. If somebody is building jewelry boxes and occassional tables that bring that number then they would be welcome. Unfortunately, run-of-the-mill turned bowls and candlestick holders would mostly not cut it. The site could not be a place for the "pro" who bought his lathe last year and shows some early promise. Sorry, but that is precisely what craft shows are for.
If you are envisioning a place where every swinging di*k with a hundred bucks or so can display their work then you WILL NOT get serious furnituremakers motivated and interested in what you're offering. Pardon my bluntness.
Edited 1/19/2005 1:21 pm ET by BossCrunk
I asked for ideas. I didn't make a sales pitch. I also didn't ask to complete with you on life accomplishments. You win, Mr. Crunker.
Just for the record... I retired at 39 after selling my manufacturing company. What I do now I do because I enjoy it. It's amazing the number of people who jump to conclusions on this forum. Oops.
scottd
Damschroder Scott Furniture
[email protected]
A craftsman needs three things: Accuracy, Technique, and Quality. Accuracy can be set; technique can be learned; but quality must be bought and built.
So you made enough money to retire at 39 and all you can think of doing with your wealth is build a website for furnituremakers?
I'd be in Tahiti running leg if I was you.
Scott, this whole thing has sort of gone downhill hasn't it? I realized that I pressed you a little, but honestly, is it reasonable to think that nobody is going to want to know a little more about you before they do business with you?
What business did you sell? What does the business manufacture? Is it something we might be interested in? I'm sure the successor owner would appreciate new business. What is the name of the business? Where is it located? Did the new owner change the name or does is operate under the same name as it did when you owned it?
Edited 1/19/2005 3:07 pm ET by BossCrunk
I wasn't asking you to do business with me... I was asking you to discuss ideas with me. Yes, downhill is politely put.
We'll agree that this discussion is probably over. Thanks for your input, it's been... well just thanks.scottd.
scottdDamschroder Scott Furniture[email protected]A craftsman needs three things: Accuracy, Technique, and Quality. Accuracy can be set; technique can be learned; but quality must be bought and built.
What do you mean you weren't asking me to do business with you? You get our appetites whetted and then you aren't going to let us do business with you? How did you become so successful with that attitude? What about the rest of the people who've read this thread? Do you not want their business? Under what conditions would you accept our business?
It's perfectly reasonable to expect that the people who provide suggestions will follow this thing all the way through to launch.
Edited 1/19/2005 3:05 pm ET by BossCrunk
You, and anyone else, are more than welcome to send me an email (as many have done) and I will add your email address to the mailing list for additional information about wood-work.com.
My email address is: [email protected]
Thanks to all for your input. I truly appreciate it.
scottd.
scottdDamschroder Scott Furniture[email protected]A craftsman needs three things: Accuracy, Technique, and Quality. Accuracy can be set; technique can be learned; but quality must be bought and built.
Let's put this thing back on track.
Let's assume for a moment that you build a first class site for bona fide, established, professional woodworkers. Let's further assume that you afford some exclusivity, "protection" if you will - you know you won't have twenty different guys on the site all of whom produce 18th century reproductions. That would get a little numbing to the customer base which I'm sure you'll agree. With these assumptions in mind, how would you get paid? Flat fee from participants? Percentage of commission? How do you see this end of the deal playing out?
One thing I would like to see is a searchable database. Taunton Press should alow me to search ALL their articles if I'm a subscriber. I know you can't do this, but I thought I'd say it anyway.
Right now I'm looking to buy a scrollsaw and I can't access the last comparison they did. I've subscribed to the mag on and off for years, but inariably I don't have the one I need. Do I have to have ALL the mags? Google just gives it away and puts ads next to it.
You don't have to have them all, but it's nice.Apples and oranges... Taunton is in the business of selling information (articles, books, etc); google is in the business of selling ads. Neither gives away their core compentency and revenue generator.
Search feature noted, thnx.scottd.
scottdDamschroder Scott Furniture[email protected]A craftsman needs three things: Accuracy, Technique, and Quality. Accuracy can be set; technique can be learned; but quality must be bought and built.
Is there really that much custom furniture being sold over the internet? I know a lot of custom makers create websites as an online portfolio for their local prospects to use, but are you guys with websites really picking up commissions from places well outside your geographic range?
I probably average one major piece a year that comes through the website exclusively. Ten to fifteen grand a year return for a $15 a month fee, I don't have to dwell on it long.Now, fess up, Charles, you're BossCrunk, right? I'll pay for your share of the beer if you'll pry yourself out of Memphis and come to MontanaFest. edit: I wanted to add that I think people are getting more comforatable with big ticket purchases online. I got my last commission from Long Island and I was being considered along side a furniture maker in Japan and one in California. This client had no reservations about online commissions.Lee
Edited 1/19/2005 5:02 pm ET by Lee_Grindinger
Cripes Lee I'm really not. No kidding. That said, the comment he made about retiring at 39 and running leg in Tahiti makes more sense than anything I've read on this forum in a long time. How 'bout you?
You're having the thing in August, right? I'm usually covered up with work by then. If you were having it now, I could get a flight out tomorrow.
edit: except for coaching basketball - all my son's friends parents know I sit around on my can this time of year.
Edited 1/19/2005 5:15 pm ET by cstan
You know what I do if I retired?Build furnitureI'd probably drink more too. I drink plenty right now and I'm building furniture..., so why should I retire? Ruthie and I have a low overhead so I don't work terribly hard anyway. Life is good but we have REALLY paid our dues to get here.Thanks for the kind words. If you get any nicer and I'll have to find another soul for the dunking booth at MontanaFest.Book your flight now, Charles, air fares are as low as I've seen them in a while, less than $400 from the East.Come on out and do a workshop, what would you like to show us?C'mon, admit it, you're the Crunkster. You keep these identities for when Taunton kicks you out. Hah, hah, ha...honestly, I'd love to toast the world with you.Let's see, this is the hot season for architectural work, it's big for furniture right now, but shopping and home furnishings are slow this time of year. What are you, Charles...a curator? An antiques dealer? a decorator?....I really don't believe you build furniture for a living but you're tied to us somehow.Lee
Edited 1/19/2005 5:55 pm ET by Lee_Grindinger
"You know what I do if I retired?
Build furniture"Now you're thinking like me...scottd.
scottdDamschroder Scott Furniture[email protected]A craftsman needs three things: Accuracy, Technique, and Quality. Accuracy can be set; technique can be learned; but quality must be bought and built.
No reason not to keep an air of mystery. I certainly wouldn't mind meeting you one day.
I actually do build for a living. I book the commissions, quote long lead times and work when it suits me. We have a special needs child that requires one parent to have a very flexible schedule. My wife teaches school and I build furniture when I'm not ranting and raving on the forum. I left a position in corporate finance several years ago and started my business. I was very fortunate to have been fairly well capitalized when I started. I also had a lot of contacts as I had been a serious amateur for years.
All in all everything works out fine. Good luck with the MontanaFest. I'd love to be able to come, but traveling is quite an ordeal for us and not something we do often.
Edited 1/20/2005 9:54 am ET by cstan
Ahhh, I knew that under that gruff exterior you're really a sweetheart.Thanks, Charles, for the good wishes about MontanaFest.It seems you have quite a challenge on your hands. My warmest regards to you and your wife.Lee
Thanks Bro.
Sounds like you're hitting stride. Your site looks great - the carving is phenomenal. Worth every bit of a nice five figure commission.
David, I'd be surprised if FWW has done a scroll saw review in the past decade, or even ever. Scroll sawing has its place, and I enjoy it to some extent. I've seen projects that I can't even imagine having the skill or sticktoitiveness to produce myself, but it's not in the definition of "fine woodworking" for the vast majority of us. There's virtually no joinery involved, the finishing is very basic and ... well, guess I'm drawing a blank ... but it just doesn't make the grade for FWW. It's a "different animal."forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Jamie,
I am in the process of rereading all of the FWW. I am not rushing this wonderful task. Some of hte older issues are great. Well, to the point, I saw a review of two scrollers by Silas Kopf. He uses them to cut veneer, of course. I am guessing that is was in the very early 80's. Just two saws, not comprehensive at all.Alan
http://www.alanturnerfurnituremaker.com
"... Scroll sawing has its place, and I enjoy it to some extent. I've seen projects that I can't even imagine having the skill or sticktoitiveness to produce myself, but it's not in the definition of "fine woodworking" for the vast majority of us. There's virtually no joinery involved, the finishing is very basic and ... well, guess I'm drawing a blank ... but it just doesn't make the grade for FWW. It's a "different animal."
Jamie,
I have to disagree with you on this one -- sorry about that.
While most of the scroll-sawn work we see is extremely detailed fretwork, there are elements of many fine furniture pieces that can be done on the scroll. Corner accents on the side table I'm building now is one example. Inlays and marquetry are other examples of using a scroll saw to create enhancements to larger pieces.
Regards,
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
Hmmmm, I feel a separate thread coming on where we can discuss this. I've thought about asking for a scrolling section, but figured we'd get turned down. Maybe not.
Keep your eyes open, 'cause I'll quote you in the new thread!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
"... 'cause I'll quote you in the new thread!"
Oops! I knew I shoulda kept my mouth shut.....
:-')
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
Scott, Is this your first venture into putting together a website, or have you been in the business for a while?
How would it work. Would the participants just email their photos and description to you then you load all of that into the site?
Would there be a set fee regardless how many pieces were shown, or would there be a fee for each photo?
If you are serious about this you may want to bring it up on the forum at http://www.furnituresociety.org/
Have you looked at http://www.guild.com How will you differ from them?
Yes, I've been in publishing since 1988, and we've been developing website applications since 1997. So this isn't a first foray into the fire.As for operations, that is yet to be determined. If you want, send me an email and I'll keep you posted. Email is: [email protected]
Also, thnx for the links. I'll check them out.
scottd.scottdDamschroder Scott Furniture[email protected]A craftsman needs three things: Accuracy, Technique, and Quality. Accuracy can be set; technique can be learned; but quality must be bought and built.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled