Hi guys
Question for those in the know. What’s the main difference between a woodworker and that of a carpenter?
Surely a carpenter started out doing everything and then things got complicated and guys started specializing?
So would woodworking refer to all the other facets of working with wood (like joiners, cabinet makers, carvers, turners etc) except for carpentry (which I assume is now making rough stuff like trusses)?
Just trying to clear things up in my mind.
Cheers
Hilton (from sunny but chilli Johannesburg, South Africa)
Replies
To me, a carpenter is someone who builds houses and does the rough framing. A trim carpenter is someone who installs all the trim and molding in the house. A woodworker is someone who works in a shop and builds furniture and crafts. I'm sure each trade crosses one anothers path once in awhile but if we're talking definition clarifications, maybe we should pull out Websters dictionary to see how it defines each. Cheers!
According to Websters...
Carpentry - the building of wooden structures.
Woodworking - the skill or craft of making items or parts out of wood.
“The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them.” – Albert Einstein
Hilton,
Norm Abrams used to be a carpenter. Then he became a woodworker. Then he became a celebrity.
In my way of thinking, "Woodworkers" can be divided into seven distinct classes or ranks:
GODS - woodworkers who have changed the world of woodworking. Not many of these hang around on KNOTS. Think of Krenov, Maloof, Frid, Thonet, etc..
COGNOSCENTI - Greatly skilled, with vast experience. Just as great musicians congregate, the woodworking COGNOSCENTI know who the other COGNOSCENTI are. These folks have really paid their dues. They have the wisdom that comes with experience. Many, if not most, are in the business, but some are hobbyists. The COGNOSCENTI on KNOTS can be recognized after a while. Some of them are quite taken with themselves. Others are humble as well as helpful. Some of them like to argue about what lesser mortals would think of as "fine points". There is a lot to be learned from the COGNOSCENTI. When they talk, others should listen.
COMERS - Younger woodworkers who are very talented and creative and are moving out fast. They will become the COGNOSCENTI, and possibly the GODS of the future. You have to be a member of the COGNOSCENTI to recognize a COMER.
WARRIORS - The woodworkers who spend evenings and weekends in the workshop. They read voraciously about woodworking, and are very conscious about being as good as possible. These folks are not in the woodworking business, but woodworking is in their blood, and excellence is their byword. There are more of these in KNOTS than any other group. These folks have a lot they can teach others as well as a lot to learn.
SOPHOMORES - They have been bitten by the woodworking bug. Not enough experience to be a WARRIOR yet. Great enthuriasm. But they are past the initial questions of: "how can I get started in woodworking?" These folks are fun to help. They tend to be very appreciative. They still ask questions like: should I buy the General or the Delta?
NEWBIES - can be recognized by questions like: How do I get started in woodworking? What are the first tools I should buy? They really want to become good woodworkers, not carpenters who just build practical stuff. Best advice for a NEWBIE is to find a WARRIOR or a COGNOSCENTI who can give them some hands-on lessons in the shop.
CARPENTERS - this covers the whole realm of folks who build houses or make an occassional shelf. These are good and practical people. They do not aspire to build cathedrals or to have one of their pieces put into a museum. The world needs carpenters. These folks are not insulted if you accuse them of not aspiring to be another Maloof or Krenov. They probably have never heard of Sam or James. Carpenters rarely think about setting their tools to tolerances of thousandths or have rulers maked down to a 64th.
Following is a small but interesting subculture of woodworkers who constitute a category which does not neatly fall in the set of categories listed above.
WRITERS - There is a relatively small group of people who have decided to become writers for woodworking magazines and authors of woodworking books. Some are quite talented. Often they are biased by who is paying them. (This is not a revelation.) The magazine WRITERS have to produce often so they come up with lots of Jigs and things. Some of the WRITERS are (or were) GODS. A good example of that was Tage Frid. Some are COGNOSCENTI, and others are ....
Hope this got you thinking, but not too much.
Woodworkers are not given their ranks by others. They choose their own. As Boss Crunk has indicated, many denizens of Knots might choose higher ranks than their experience and wisdom would support. But then again, reality is very confining!
So much for words, let's go out and make some great furniture.
Mel
And then Norm became a tool salesman.Ron
I agree totally! Norm is a sales rep for Pentair Tool Group (now Black and Decker) who uses Delta and Porter Cable tools. Gotta love him pitching that oscillating edge sander. Pentair spent a lot of money on R+D. The episode he pushed the Tormek sharpening system should have gotten him kicked off PBS.
Mel,It's just not cool to be a carpenter. Furniture maker has more prestige. But then I fed a family for a lot of years as a carpenter/aspiring furniture maker. While I did get to build some nice pieces, I could never build a furniture clientele. I could never get past calling decorators "decorators" which didn't help, it may have had something to do with an attitude problem. I just called myself a woodworker.As a carpenter, I got to work for some very successful and wealthy people. A few probably known to everyone here. I walked away from some too. I also worked for some very poor people, sometimes charging less for the whole job than the material costs. I worked for all kinds of people. At times I got to do incredibly nice work and sometimes it was just work. Financially, I did okay. Not great but okay. Traveling through this small town I see a lot of buildings I worked on--most of them in fact. Still, I never called myself a carpenter.After a couple decades of that, I got hurt in a non-job related fall. I can't do carpentry anymore but I'm still a woodworker.Occasionally now I teach. Craft schools usually have the instructors give a short presentation to all the students attending a particular session. The last time I did one of these presentations I showed slides of some of my carpentry jobs. I finally proudly told people I was a carpenter. It was just fine.Looking back on life as a carpenter, I realize I enjoyed it. Well, most of the time I enjoyed it. I didn't like it much when I was way too hot or too cold. I’m sure I made better money than if I had tried to be just a furniture maker.
Mr. Williams,
My youngest brother was a carpenter for decades. He has become a homebuilder. He has done well. He started off after high school as a one-man furniture making shop. My wife and I gave him his first three commissions. He was fantastic, but he didn't get any commissions from anyone else after that. He found he couldn't make a go of it, so he got into a company that did kitchen renovations. I have learned a lot from him. Enjoy,
Mel
So what do you call someone whose output is best measured in smiles-per-board-foot?
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Jazzdogg, You asked: "So what do you call someone whose output is best measured in smiles-per-board-foot?"My answer: "Friend".
I reckon you're right; there may be hope for me yet.
I think I'd rather be called a friend than be a famous carpenter, woodworker, furnituremaker, or shop teacher, and in a perfect world, I don't guess I'd mind a scoop of each ; - )
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Edited 7/20/2006 12:11 am by jazzdogg
Jazzdogg, my friend,Currently I get 26 smiles per board foot (spbf) when working on curly maple, 22 spbf with quartersawn oak, and 6 with pine from Home Depot. If Brubeck, Gillespie, Monk or Hampton is playing in the background, my spbf increases by 10%. I am thinking that I can get another 10% increase if I buy four more Bessey K clamps, a Lie Nielsen shoulder plane, and an Adria backsaw.With your permission, I will adopt your metric as my personal signature on Knots. Anyone who measures their output using your metric is a friend, and is welcome in my workshop. Thank you.
Mel
"With your permission, I will adopt your metric as my personal signature on Knots."
Hi Mel,
Sure! Go ahead! Especially since we seem to have both jazz and sawdust in common!
These days, I seldom listen to great jazz while woodworking because my mind likes to take unathorized leave from the work at hand and go on a spontaneous jazz journey; there are times when that wouldn't be a problem, but when I find myself paying more attention to the changes Oscar Peterson and Ray Brown are playing on Lush Life than to my own safety or productivity, and I'll need all of my fingers for a gig that night, I know what has to take priority!
Eb C | F Bb | G C | F Bb | EB E | D Db | C Bb A Ab | G...
The Former Band LeaderAnd so it came to pass, during one date, that the Sidemen were assailed by Doubts, and Darkness descended upon the Bandstand.And the Leader turned to his quaking flock, and saith, "My children, why do you doubt me? "Have I not led you through the Valley of the Loading Dock to the Great Land of Long Breaks, Hot Meals, and Undertime?"Have I not banished the dreaded 'Macarena' from the Set List, and allowed thee to Blow on selected numbers? "Do we not play the Correct Changes for the Bridge of 'Girl From Ipanema', and do we not play Motown selections at the Proper Tempos?"And do I not pay you all equitably, neither overpaying the Chick Singers nor underpaying the Horn Players?"And are there not Charts for the Horns, so that thou need not Fake Parts?"So why doth thou protest when I call The Willie Nelson Song, or The Jackson 5 Ballad? Are they not preferable to 'Achey Breaky Heart' or anything by Celine Dion?"Wouldst thou rather suffer Flung Beverage Containers or Scowls and Hectoring by the Aunts and Uncles?"And the Sidemen answered him, "But Father, we look out into the Dance Floor, and we see The Maelstrom;"We fear the Youngsters with Pierced Body Parts, as well as the Ancient Ones withCanes and Walkers;"Also do we fear the Bridesmaids with the Large Hair, and the Groomsmen with Cigars and Dishevelled Tuxedos; "Also do we fear the Relatives from the Great Southwest, as well as those from California, and from New York;"Also do we regard with Fear and Loathing the Party Planner, and the Room Captain;"But mostly do we fear the Bride, and Her Mother, who ruleth the Earth, yea, even above you, our Leader."And the Leader looked and saw that this was true. And he took his Book, and he flung it into the Buffet Heaters;And he took his Bandstand, and he broke it over his knee; And he took his Red Bow Tie, and he rent it asunder;And he turned to the Party Planner, and he said, "Now you have no power over me, Minion of Evil";And he turned to the Room Captain, and he said, "I will leave by the Lobby Entrance";And he turned to the Bride, and said, "Take thy Whitney Houston CD and place it where thy Groom may find it during your Honeymoon;" And he turned to the Bride's Mother and said, "Thy Daughter is a Spoiled Brat, and I hope that she soon Divorces her Callow Husband and returneth to live with thee with her three children for the rest of thy Natural Life;" <!----><!----><!---->
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And he turned to the drummer and said, "The band is yours." <!----><!---->
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And he went home and slept deeply and soundly, and arose the next day smiling, and began Making Calls to find work as a Sideman.<!----><!---->
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
what a beautiful story....I quit playing weddings 20 years ago and I've never regretted for a moment.
Jazzdogg, my friend,Thou art a master story teller as well as a wise, generous and happy woodworker. In music, you just got to play one of the instruments. In woodworking, you get to play them all! Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Jazz, I don't know what that was pertaining to but it was most enjoyable!Philip Marcou
Glad you enjoyed it; it's the kind of "insider humor" that's endemic to lots of professions and avocations - and has professional musicians laughing and nodding quietly in agreement while they wait to tell their own hard-earned stories from the trenches.
If we started swappinig tales about our experiences with interior designers (and countless other witless folks) who haven't a clue what it takes to produce the furniture and cabinets that we do, it would likely generate much the same resonance among Knotheads.***********************HOW TO SING THE BLUES<!----><!----><!---->
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If you are new to Blues music, or like it but never really understood the why and wherefores, here are some very fundamental rules:<!----><!---->
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1. Most Blues begin with: "Woke up this morning..."<!----><!---->
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2. "I got a good woman" is a bad way to begin the Blues, unless you stick something nasty in the next line like, "I got a good woman, with the meanest face in town."<!----><!---->
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3. The Blues is simple. After you get the first line right, repeat it. Then find something that rhymes - sort of: "Got a good woman with the meanest face in town. Yes, I got a good woman with the meanest face in town. Got teeth like Margaret Thatcher and she weigh 500 pound."<!----><!---->
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4. The Blues is not about choice. You stuck in a ditch, you stuck in a ditch...ain't no way out.<!----><!---->
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5. Blues cars: Chevys, Fords, Cadillacs and broken-down trucks. Blues don't travel in Volvos, BMWs, or Sport Utility Vehicles. Most Blues transportation is a Greyhound bus or a southbound train. Jet aircraft and state-sponsored motor pools ain't even in the running. Walkin' plays a major part in the Blues lifestyle. So does fixin' to die.<!----><!---->
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6. Teenagers can't sing the Blues. They ain't fixin' to die yet. Adults sing the Blues. In Blues, "adulthood" means being old enough to get the electric chair if you shoot a man in Memphis.<!----><!---->
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7. Blues can take place in New York City but not in Hawaii or anywhere in Canada. Hard times in Minneapolis or Seattle is probably just clinical depression. Chicago, St. Louis, Kansas City, Memphis, and Nawlins are still the best places to have the Blues. You cannot have the Blues any place that don't get rain.<!----><!---->
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8. A man with male pattern baldness ain't the Blues. A woman with male pattern baldness is. Breaking your leg 'cause you were skiing is not the Blues. Breaking your leg 'cause a alligator be chomping on it is.<!----><!---->
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9. You can't have no Blues in an office or a shopping mall. The lighting is wrong. Go outside to the parking lot or sit by the dumpster.<!----><!---->
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10. Good places for the Blues:<!----><!---->
a. highway<!----><!---->
b. jailhouse<!----><!---->
c. empty bed<!----><!---->
d. bottom of a whiskey glass<!----><!---->
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11. Bad places for the Blues<!----><!---->
a. Nordstrom's<!----><!---->
b. gallery openings<!----><!---->
c. Ivy League institutions<!----><!---->
d. golf courses<!----><!---->
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12.No one will believe it's the Blues if you wear a suit, 'less you happen to be an old person, and you slept in it.<!----><!---->
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13. Do you have the right to sing the Blues? <!----><!---->
Yes, if:<!----><!---->
a. you're older than dirt<!----><!---->
b. you're blind<!----><!---->
c. you shot a man in Memphis<!----><!---->
d. you can't be satisfied<!----><!---->
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No, if:<!----><!---->
a. you have all your teeth<!----><!---->
b. you were once blind but now can see<!----><!---->
c. the man in Memphis lived<!----><!---->
d. you have a 401K or trust fund<!----><!---->
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14. Blues is not a matter of color. It's a matter of bad luck. Tiger Woods cannot sing the Blues. Sonny Liston could have. Ugly white people also got a leg up on the Blues.<!----><!---->
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15. If you ask for water and your darlin' gives you gasoline, it's the Blues.Other acceptable Blues beverages are:<!----><!---->
a. cheap wine<!----><!---->
b. whiskey or bourbon<!----><!---->
c. muddy water<!----><!---->
d. black coffee<!----><!---->
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The following are NOT Blues beverages:<!----><!---->
a. Perrier<!----><!---->
b. Chardonnay<!----><!---->
c. Snapple<!----><!---->
d. Slim Fast<!----><!---->
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16. If death occurs in a cheap motel or a shotgun shack, it's a Blues death. Stabbed in the back by a jealous lover is another Blues way to die. So are the electric chair, substance abuse and dying lonely on a broken-down cot. You can't have a Blues death if you die during a tennis match or while getting liposuction.<!----><!---->
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17. Some Blues names for women:<!----><!---->
a. Sadie<!----><!---->
b. Big Mama<!----><!---->
c. Bessie<!----><!---->
d. Fat River Dumpling<!----><!---->
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18. Some Blues names for men:<!----><!---->
a. Joe<!----><!---->
b. Willie<!----><!---->
c. Little Willie<!----><!---->
d. Big Willie<!----><!---->
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19. Persons with names like Michelle, Amber, Jennifer, Debbie, and Heather can't sing the Blues no matter how many men they shoot in Memphis.<!----><!---->
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20. Blues Name Starter Kit<!----><!---->
a. name of physical infirmity (Blind, Cripple, Lame, etc.)<!----><!---->
b. first name (see above) plus name of fruit (Lemon, Lime, Kiwi, etc.)<!----><!---->
c. last name of President (Jefferson, Johnson, Fillmore, etc.)<!----><!---->
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For example: Blind Lime Jefferson, Pegleg Lemon Johnson or Cripple Kiwi Fillmore, etc. (Well, maybe not "Kiwi.")<!----><!---->
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21. I don't care how tragic your life is: if you own a computer, you cannot sing the blues, period.<!----><!---->
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-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
jazzdog, AWESOME!!!!!! Gotta love them Blues!
Jazzy
Thats good, but you missed on #7, Austin, TX, plenty of blues, as good as any of those cities that you mentioned!
Doug
Hi Doug,
You may be right, but is it really "The Blues" if the musicians are wearing cowboy boots? <g>
BEADG,
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
No cowboy boots in Austin, thats the rest of the state! <G>
And this town does sing the blues, a lot of the greats have came through here.
Doug
I used to go to a place called "The Ice House" in Wilmington, NC. Open air stage and all night jam sessions. I have no idea of who those musicians were, or what they did in their day job, but they could flat play some blues.
Oh yeah, the beer was so cold it hurt your teeth - lol.
Your Blues piece is a real gem. Actually made me laugh out loud for the first time in a while.
DR
Glad I could bring a smile to your face!
THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE
Those who jump off a bridge in Paris are in Seine. <!----><!----><!---->
A backward poet writes inverse. <!----><!---->
A man's home is his castle, in a manor of speaking. <!----><!---->
Dijon vu - the same mustard as before. <!----><!---->
Practice safe eating - always use condiments. <!----><!---->
Shotgun wedding: A case of wife or death. <!----><!---->
A hangover is the wrath of grapes. <!----><!---->
Dancing cheek-to-cheek is really a form of floor play. <!----><!---->
Does the name Pavlov ring a bell? <!----><!---->
Condoms should be used on every conceivable occasion. <!----><!---->
Reading while sunbathing makes you well red. <!----><!---->
When two egotists meet, it's an I for an I. <!----><!---->
A bicycle can't stand on its own because it is two tired. <!----><!---->
What's the definition of a will? (It's a dead giveaway.) <!----><!---->
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana. <!----><!---->
In democracy your vote counts. In feudalism your count votes. <!----><!---->
She was engaged to a boyfriend with a wooden leg but broke it off. <!----><!---->
A chicken crossing the road is poultry in motion. <!----><!---->
If you don't pay your exorcist, you get repossessed. <!----><!---->
With her marriage, she got a new name and a dress. <!----><!---->
When a clock is hungry, it goes back four seconds. <!----><!---->
The man who fell into an upholstery machine is fully recovered. <!----><!---->
You feel stuck with your debt if you can't budge it. <!----><!---->
Local Area Network in Australia: the LAN down under. <!----><!---->
He often broke into song because he couldn't find the key. <!----><!---->
Every calendar's days are numbered. <!----><!---->
A lot of money is tainted - It taint yours and it taint mine. <!----><!---->
A boiled egg in the morning is hard to beat. <!----><!---->
He had a photographic memory that was never developed. <!----><!---->
A plateau is a high form of flattery. <!----><!---->
A midget fortune-teller who escapes from prison is a small medium at large. <!----><!---->
Those who get too big for their britches will be exposed in the end. <!----><!---->
Once you've seen one shopping center, you've seen a mall. <!----><!---->
Bakers trade bread recipes on a knead-to-know basis. <!----><!---->
Santa's helpers are subordinate clauses. <!----><!---->
Acupuncture is a jab well done.<!----><!---->
Puns are bad..poetry is verse<!----><!---->
Has the impeached judge been disrobed?<!----><!---->
Has the runner who's been picked off second been debased?<!----><!---->
Has the shaven-headed person been deferred?<!----><!---->
Binary is two simple
<!----> <!---->-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Wow!What a response. Thanks ever so much guys. It appears that the difference is not clear cut? So much passion in the replies. Awesome.Have a great week.
I thought it interesting that you mention the names Krenov, Frig etc as not hanging around "Knots".
The internet is beyond them......especially Thonet.
Good business men today need to be on the internet just to observe and learn. Once in a while they'll through out 2 cents. Remember with the exception of Sammy and Thonet those other guys were teachers so its their responsibility to get the word out.
Gods.....I don't think so.
Hilton,
I've been a framer, carpenter, finish carpenter, cabinetmaker, furnituremaker, woodworker, mechanic, finisher, sculptor, restorer, fabricator, chief cook and bottle washer....... I suppose if I were to refer to myself as one or another it would pigeon hole me, in a way. Bottom line, it's whatever term others choose as they pay me for services rendered.
Cheers,
-Paul
"I've been a framer, carpenter, finish carpenter, cabinetmaker, furnituremaker, woodworker, mechanic, finisher, sculptor, restorer, fabricator, chief cook and bottle washer"
You forgot, "a pawn and a king"Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
Rennie,
Isn't it the truth........
-Paul
Uncle Pablo,
Great response. It is in line with the thinking of a great Science Fiction writer. Robert A. Heinlein, who said:"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure,program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."Mel
Mel,
I whole heartedly agree!
-Paul
A Carpenter uses a Hammer... a Woodworker uses a Mallet.
Carpenter frames a house in a day, woodworker spends the day arguing the merits of a secondary bevel on his tool.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Good one... Anybody have anymore?Furniture...the Art of a FurnitureMaker
Carpenters are wood workers who make a regular income.
Jack
Woodworker is the set. Cabinetmaker, carpenter, etc. are the subsets. Skills of the members of the subsets overlap but are not possessed by all members. I suppose that the term "fine" as applied to WWing refers to practicing those skills which are more difficult to master or which require the most patience. It may simply apply to creating a work that only the rich can afford to buy, however.
Cadiddlehopper
China, you have sort of answered your own question but I'll throw in my five cents worth(S.A). They are all woodworms but some equip themselves with hammer, nails, lunch box planer, infra red scope- and the elitists now have fancy chop saws, since the old Distons have been pawned off to Galoots.
Ofcourse there is a pecking order and naturally the gentleman cabinet maker is at the top and some would say the shuttering carpenter is at the bottom-although the bowel turner in my view is more suited to that position, being such a voracious consumer of the finest timbers at the expense of the truly deserving cabinet maker. On further thought this position could be shared with that other scourge, the stock maker, in the looting of Walnut Forests in both hemispheres.Some would also argue that the Makers of Wooden Planes are competing against the latter as well-but this may be hearsay.
Then again the cabinet makers themselves are split into two factions, the more enterprising being the ones who have seen fit to employ machinery sometimes on a grand scale, having spurned the flimsy imitation stuff from the Orient: and the other faction espousing the exact opposite, choosing instead to go backwards, having divested itself of all machinery. It is not for me to comment upon the lunacy of this decision, other than to say that I found the Luddite era a brief but interesting part of history at school.Also I must admit to having a soft spot for the latter, but only for those that are able to recognise a real plane amongst the common Canadian herds.
Anyway, don't want to do more than scratch the surface here, so have not mentioned off -shoots such as Joiners and Carvers.....
philip,
HEY! As Curly Howard used to say, I resemble that last remark...
Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk,
Ray
Philip,
Enjoyed your post. As always, you opened up the discussion. Taking that one step further, there is a group of woodworkers, who are "cabinetmakers" in a way, but who don't hang around Knots. They are the "Minaturists" - those who build minature houses and furniture. Sometimes they are called "doll house and furniture makers" but real minaturists are offended when one of their creations is called a "Doll House." They work mostly at the 1" = 1' scale here in the US. No one "plays" with their creations, which are really for display only. They work to much more exacting standards than woodworkers and cabinetmakers. Their chairs and sofas and cabinets often sell for more than full size furniture. They are a very interesting group. I got into it. It took me seven years of part time work to complete a five story minature house with all of the furniture. I have no interest in making another, but I acquired great admiration for the "scale cabinetmaker".
Mel
PS here is a website with some nice examples of minature furniture. http://www.shenandoahmuseum.org/galleries/minatures_gallery.html
Yes, amazing attention to detail.Then at the other end of the scale we have Pattern Makers. Not so prominent these days but in the past those would have to produce complicated things on a huge scale very accurately too.
I have a horrible feeling that the average person these days thinks that a woodworker is someone who works for the Forestry Department.Philip Marcou
A carpenter builds houses and a woodworker builds furniture.
It's a big tent; lots of specialities if you scroll down to "topics" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WoodworkerBut I generally agree, a carpenter assembles buildings. It would get a little gray when you ask which would make mantles, stairways, kitchen cabinets, built ins, etc. But then carpenters also do things like concrete forms for bridges and walls.A couple of years ago I did some work on a built-in bookcase / cabinet with raised panel doors and flat panel everwhere else. The joints were tight enough to look good on a piano (yet another genre of woodworker -- piano builders)
Edited 7/20/2006 7:18 pm ET by byhammerandhand
A carpenter is a guy with a tool belt. Norm, for instance.
Tom
"A carpenter is a guy with a tool belt. Norm, for instance."
Maybe a framer but I'm not sure about that. IMO a nail apron in a wood shop is an accident going to happen. Let me know if Norm ever gets sucked into his jointer. Not that I would want to witness that kind of carnage.
I call myself a carpinter, and the name of my business includes carpintery not cabinetry. The reason is that I don't like to be limited to cabinetry. I love making a coffered ceiling and tieing it into the library that I made in my shop. I also like redefining the space that will hold my creations, and that generally includes framing and sheetrock.
So I am, proudly, a carpinter. I know that it confuses lay people but if they are interested I'll explain it to them.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Now you have defined it for me. A hobby obsessed faffer, the one thing that grabs is the opportunity to think round problems and come up with better and more simple ways of achieving good results. As with many lone activities if (when) anything goes wrong, I am at fault.
The professional does not have my lattitudes simply by reason of time constraints and the need to make a living.
I've given this question much thought over the years as a person who started out framing houses for years before getting into woodworking. I'd say the difference between woodworker and carpenter is that the woodworker could do what a carpenter does, whereas a carpenter couldn't do what a woodworker does. This has nothing to do with woodworkers being more skilled, but rather temperment: when I framed houses (did carpentry work), many of my co-workers were perfectly content getting within a 1/4", the 1/16" hashmark on the tape just got in the way. And that's fine for framing! And the average carpenter is content with that level of detail! But the average woodworker would have a panic attack working that loosy-goosy. Again, it's all about the comfort level. The skills neccessary for both trades intermix, but the personality types are different
Oldgrowth,
If you are not the business, then it doesn't matter what you call yourself. As they say, "Call me anything you want, just don't call me late for dinner."If you are in a wood-related business, then you need to put the words on your business card that will cause your target audience to give you their business. "Know your customer". If they are more likely to give you their business if you have "Oldgrowth45, Woodworker" on your business card and on your advertisements, than "Oldgrowth, Carpenter", then those are the right words. I have a relative in Italy who is a fantastic artist in oil paints. He makes a great living by painting copies of the old Masters. He doesn't try to pass his work off as a forgery. He found that they sell better if he refers to them as "Fakes". Don't ask me to explain that. It was a business decision. Do whatevere it takes to please the customer. If you want to check out his website, go to:
http://www.fakemaster.itIf you are not in the business, then the most important thing is not what you call yourself but how much you enjoy your hobby. If you enjoy doing building furniture while dressed in a rabbit suit and snacking on carrots, then that's the thing to do. Just don't get your tail caught in a spinning blade.Enjoy,
Mel
So what would you say to a finish carpenter? Putting in crown moldings certainly needs better than 1/4". Granted, framing carpenters are another story, but not all carpenters are framers.
Bob
Well, I have perused most of this thread and agree with some and disagree with others. First and formost I am a carpenter, mostly restoration, conservation and renovation. The problem is (and someone mentioned this), I have the temperament of a woodworker. I do mostly trim and am known for some of the fancy crownwork, and tight cab installations. I had a woodshop for 12 years, but we moved and I sold off the heavy machines. I still have my lathe.
I have a little higher respect for a great carpenter because they tend to see a bigger picture and have a better handle on how things work and how the world is put together. They know a different level math, and the variety of materials they need to know about absolutely dwarfs that of a woodworker. I think like a woodworker, framing out in 32nds even though that is a waste of time. A good carpenter sees and thinks ahead as his work of the day moves along. They have to think more in a production mode than most woodworkers. That did not come easily for me. If I happen to be framing and there will be the very very rare piece of absolutely clear doug fir, I will put it aside to take home. I worked as a carpentry foreman for several years, and the guys thought it was the strangest thing to see me unroll my chisels, and carefully lay out my Lie Nielson planes to trim with, or God forbid, see me use a really sharp handsaw!!
One day I will have another small shop and turn out some of the nice furniture I used to, but till then, both my sons are in college and I'm in tuition city, so...I am a carpenter, and I can really crank it if I have to. Next year will be 30 years working in the skilled trades. It's been a good life even though at the moment I'm a little burned out. Certainly woodworkers and carpenters share the wonderful tangibility of their toils at days end.
I know who Sam is, Nakishima's shop is right down the road from me and have worked with some of his 'helpers', I had dinner with Tage Frid, and even met and had a brief talk with Norm many years ago. Yes, he really does wear plaid even when the camera is not rolling.
Is there anything more satisfying than having that curl of wood jump out the mouth of my old Bedrock #7, so thin I could read the next issue of FWW right through it or look through it and see my own blathering self still thinking in 64'ths, still wondering how this world is put together and held? No...I think not.
I am a carpenter. I have a good life as one.
To me (and the trade ) a carpenter is someone who has served an apprenticeship, attended school and been tested in all areas of carpenter work. This would include site layout, formwork, framing, siding, roofing, scaffolding, drywall, interior and exterior trim, installing, windows doors, cabinates, hardware and long list of other stuff. When you are a carpenter you can prove it by showing your papers/ trade certificate.
I took my trade in Canada but I know most countries have apprenticeship programs. I had the wonderful experience of filling in as an instructor of the trim portion for the government and college .
Most carpenters specialise after they finish the trade and schooling. Most first "do thier journeys...hence journeyman...learning as much as they can.
I don't look down on anyone who works in the trade doing any aspect of it because I have done it all. A good form carpenter can make or break the whole structure. It is not a dummies job, if you think it is just take a look at a print from an industrial site like a steel plant or an oil refinery with huge monolithic pours with machine bases that have bolt layouts that have extremely tight tolerances. It is also a very physically demanding job.
A good framing carpenter can make everyones life who follows him better. The great thing about serving an apprenticeship is that you know all the basics and have an understanding of the whole picture.
I would encourage anyone starting out to take an apprenticeship. I really admire people who can make it by just picking it up, but as you know, it is not easy to do and your learning curve may be costly.
I am now winding down my work life and have only done interior trim for many years and hope to keep learning and doing the rest of my life. My newest interest is carving and I am taking courses and looking for a mentor.
A cabinatemaker is another trade and there is some cross over. Carpenters sometimes become cabinatemakers and visa versa. Cabinatemakers serve an aprentiseship too. The trouble with thier trade is that they have a less general background of knowledge and even though they must have extreme skill with thier head and hands they are usually paid much less.
A woodworker includes tradespeople who work with wood, people who are profetional woodcrafters, many very talented amitures (don,t make thier living at it.) and people who love to play with wood and hang around woodshops.
I think it is wise to do something you love to do. I love to hang around woodshops and play with wood but I am a carpenter as my ancestors were.
Hilton,
Woodworker or carpenter. A qucik and easy split would be the wood worker typically works with hardwoods while a carpenter typically works with soft woods..
Frenchy,
You mean like all those Shaker 'carpenters' that gave us those beautiful pine chests, tables, and cuboards? ;o)Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
Rennie,
Any psychologist could easily differentiate between woodworkers and carpenters. The psychologists would merely give both groups a test for obsessive-compulsive behavior. Those that score high would be the woodworkers. :-)
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Once again you have cut through all the extraneous static and gotten to the heart of the matter.
Well said!Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
Rennie,
fair enough, But once you understand the motive behind working with pine versis a hardwood you understand they are the exception that proves the rulle..
So along that line, what am I? I mean I'm building my house out of mostly hardwoods like black walnut and white oak etc.. very little soft woods? am I a carpenter or a wood worker?
Easy now, I was smiling when I said it! ;o)
I did not want to weigh in on this as I know there is no exact delineation. But...
1. I could not resist your reference knowing that some mighty fine furniture has been built from soft woods,
2. It's rather fun to sit back and watch the skirmish!Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
Rennie,
<G> it's time we have a decent fight here at knots.. the only really good debate in recent years was about using toothpaste as a polish.
If needed I'll take the role of being a bad guy and make the statement that Hardwoods are important woods and soft woods are for hacks..
There, that shouuld offend just about 1/2 of the readers <G>
frenchy,
Nice try. But you know that wood workers are all good guys. The guys who work metal are the hacks. Why else would they use hacksaws, to cut the stuff?
Cheers,
Ray
In one of the Taunton Books (The Workshop Book, The Toolbox Book, or The Workbench Book), the author has researched some 200 yr old plus definitions of a carpenter, a jointer, and a cabinetmaker. This definition might have come down from on high as an agreement between guilds, to separate who does what scope of work.
Somebody might have said that already, I'm just too tired to read through the 50 other responses. One of these days maybe, I'll get around to looking for the right book and type in those definitions here.
Joinerswork,
That and you got the big guy who started out as a carpenter, er wood worker <G> Of course he got into another line of work and while some may claim it's because he couldn't make a profit working with wood I suspect otherwise!
PS No fair making the obvious pun!
frenchy,
I like puns. By the way, did you know that there's one pine that isn't a softwood?
Cheers,
Ray PINE
joinerswork,
I assume that you mean Tamarack.. well it's a bit of a stretch to call that not a softwood but I do see your point.. (PS I use Tamarack for my subfloors)
frenchy,
No, I meant ME! Though I am just a big softy at heart.
Cheers,
Ray PINE
When your wife talks sweet does that make you hard pine? Sorry, this will probably get deleted.J.P.
JP,
No, only when she talks dirty.
Ray
Lets see, I am in the middle of building a garden bench but I just completed install crown moulding in a bedroom for a lady.
Now, doing the crown moulding makes me a carpenter -or- does making the garden bench make me a woodworker?
I think you are cutting hairs with that question because I know some pretty good carpenters that have made very nice furniture. I think of myself as a craftsman because in this day and age you have to flexible enough to do both. Now I don't mean to go out and build a house or put on an addition, but to do interior work like mouldings, baseboards, trims, doors, etc... but also doing fine indoor and outdoor furniture.
How about luthiers, ya know the folks who make wooden stringed musical instruments, violins, violas, guitars, etc?
Is a luthier a woodworker?
I am doing carpenter work now, rehabbing a parking garage at a major international airport. It is all concrete work. Usually one quarter inch gets us close enough. We can just split the difference and end up with a 1/8" gap at each end. A quarter is what some guys frame houses to, also, not that I would want to buy that house, or live in it.
I used to work for a finish stair company. It was like building a piece of functional furniture in a house. If you're out 1/16th in laying out your stringers, that error compounds itself per each unit rise. At the top of the stairs you could be 1" over what you really need. Insert Homer Simpson "doh!" noise here.
Having written an article for FWW (not to toot my own horn, really), about a jig using 3/8" dia. by 16 threads to the inch threaded rod, I could get 1/64th of adjustment one quarter turn of the handle. Yes, tenons need to be that close.
I really don't consider myself a furnituremaker yet because I have never made a chair.
I guess for now I'd settle for the term "woodworker", even though cabinet maker sounds so much sexier. Not to be confused with cabinetry maker, though.
I'm not sure it really matters, as long as you enjoy what you are doing. I've built cabinets and cupboard doors for my kitchen.designed and built closet organizers for all the bedrooms. Finish trim for the living room, so what ever you want to call me its up in the air.....as long as my wife doesn't call me late for dinner
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