I strongly urge those of you with Woodworkers Warehouse gift certificates and merchandise credits to use them ASAP!
The following is a link to the SEC website with some recent filings that influence this message if you are interested in the reason for this post.
http://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-edgar?action=getcompany&CIK=0001161625&owner=include
Replies
Good eye for detail, Dr. Watson. Sherlock himself couldn't have done it better. ha..ha..
sarge..jt
A quick summation of the information at the Securities and Exchange web site; Woodworkers Warehouse is getting behind in paying their loans and they're considering declaring bankruptcy.
To quote: " As a result, the Company is evaluating alternative courses of action, including the potential filing of a bankruptcy petition to reorganize the Company or liquidate its assets." Dated Nov 4, 2003.
It would be a shame if they disappeared, their stores are often the only alternative to having to mail order otherwise hard to find shop supplies. The local store seems to be well run.
John W.
Edited 11/15/2003 11:19:40 AM ET by JohnW
I agree that it would be a shame to see them go. I think the local store is well run too. They provide excelent service and can usually offer good suggestions on how to tackle a problem.
I question if store front retailing of woodworking tools is a viable business model. You have to compete on price with the catalog/internet retailers who have much lower overheads than do a store front operation.
A big factor is the amout of inventory necessary to serve your customers. With 92 stores WW must carry 92 each of many large and costly items in order to have them on display. They must be transported to each store, assembled and occupy sales floor at $12 per sq ft or more per year. The margins and turnover on these big items are not that much either. They must make their margins by selling the accessories, not the cast iron. It's consumes a lot of working capital.
I wonder how many people visit their local store to see the product and then order it mailorder to avoid the local sales tax.
<<I question if store front retailing of woodworking tools is a viable business model. You have to compete on price with the catalog/internet retailers who have much lower overheads than do a store front operation.>>
As I said on a recent thread, I have learned how important service is as well as price. Wait until you have a problem with a planer (as I did) or other power tool; I returned mine to the local Woodcraft store for a replacement and was planing again within an hour. I will always pay a premium ( $10-30?) for that service rather than having to pack, ship, pay shipping AGAIN, then wait several weeks or months for a return.
Service (or lack thereof) is exactly why I refuse to patronize Woodworkers Warehouse. Years ago, my mom gave me a couple I-beam clamps for Xmas, purchased at WW. I really had no use for such heavy-duty clamps, and being short on clamps to begin with, I thought I would exchange them for a bunch of standard bar clamps. As it turned out, even though the WW sticker was still affixed to the clamps, and even though all I wanted to do was exchange them for alternate merchandise (most likely spending additional money on clamps)I was told that without a receipt, no return was possible. Period. I ended up calling the customer service 800 number, where the rep told me that if I could pinpoint the store they were purchased at, and the day they were purchased on, she could get me a receipt so I could do the exchange. That's about when I gave up on WW. They obviously did not need any more of my business, and never got any. I ended up getting my bar clamps at Home Depot, where they cheerfully matched the sale price in the WW ad I brought in.
I will shed no tears for WW. Good riddance to bad rubbish.
How could you expect a store to refund a purchase without a receipt? The clamps could have been purchased at a sale price, when you returned them the regular price might be applied. The store loses money on a return. Woodworkers Warehouse or for that matter any store doesn't need your business.
mike
Rule number one: The customer is ALWAYS right. ;-)
Rule number two: When the customer is wrong he/she is still right ;-)
Rule number three: The customer one has is worth far more, and costs far less to keep, than any new customer one might get.
Taking $50 worth of items in trade will only cost the store money if they can not be sold for $50.
"The customer is always right!"
WRONG!! Anyone who has spent a day in retailing (let alone decades, like me) knows that while the customer is not always RIGHT, they are ALWAYS THE CUSTOMER, and deserve to be treated respectfully. A small loss to keep a (good?) customer vs. no loss and someone badmouthing your business -- that's the kind of decision every business needs to make many times each day. The result of those decisions -- the business' reputation.
Well a couple of years in retail (while in school, and a little bit after that), and a long time in high-tech manufacturing.
Perhaps the comment "The customer is always right." is a bit simplistic, but it's going to do the business much better than "The customer is always wrong." At my last employer we always bent over backwards to help customers. We'd even help customers solve problems with our competitors products. Did some take advantage? You bet. Most however, were most appreciative, and went out of their way to buy our products, which came with higher price tags and bigger margins to boot.
In the end, yes, it's reputation, and at least IMHO, the organization that goes out of its way to send a customer away happy wins back tenfold.
Quality = Performance - Expectations
Amen. Keeping the lifeblood of the business (customers) first and going out of your way to try to exceed their expectations goes a long way -- and is so rare nowadays.
I run a family hardware store that's been in business for 75 years, my great grandfather started it in 1928.
My family's simple rule for dealing with customers, "The customer is not always right, the customer is just never wrong."
In this case I believe that the return policy is flawed, but if that was the policy when the clamps were purchased then they have every right to ask you for the reciept. Remember that when you purchase an item from a retailer you are entering into a contract for not only the goods but also for any and all return, exchange or warranty policies of that retailer. When your mother purchased the clamps she also purchased their exchange policy. As much as the policy is flawed (more leeway should be allowed to the clerks to decide if they want to process the return) that policy is what was purchased and it is not wrong for them to ask you to stick to your end of the contract.
Edited 11/19/2003 7:11:48 PM ET by Canadian EH?
"How could you expect a store to refund a purchase without a receipt? The clamps could have been purchased at a sale price, when you returned them the regular price might be applied. The store loses money on a return."
I can expect them to develop a similar policy to any other store I shop at, all of which have some sort of method for taking back gifts, especially after the holiday season. There are stores which, sans receipt, will only refund you the lowest sale price within the past month or two. That would have satisfied me, yet allowed the store to not lose money. Instead, because of their inflexible policy, they've missed out of thousands of dollars of my business. It isn't as if I tried to return an item bought elsewhere, or demanded a cash refund. I simply wanted to exchange an item for something more useful to me. But, as you say, they don't need my business (especially since they are doing such a banner job staying in business). It would behoove you to try to be a little less inflexible in your thinking.
WW obviously hasn't kept up with the rest of the retail world with regard to returns. To be totally inflexible about the receipt was way out of the norm. Unfortunately, when you're dealing with one store in a big chain, there is no "wiggle room" for the local manager. I'd have had the same reaction you did probably.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
"Unfortunately, when you're dealing with one store in a big chain, there is no "wiggle room" for the local manager."
Unfortunately, it wasn't just the local manager - I got the same BS from the customer service 800 number. Oh well - their loss. I just ended up stuck with a couple of clamps that didn't get used much.
"Unfortunately, it wasn't just the local manager " That's what I mean -- even if the local manager might have been sympathetic, he wouldn't have been able to go against co. policy.
I was shopping at Target one night last year(?) when I walked past a check-stand and saw one of the tabloids (National Enquirer?) with a full-page picture of the Columbine shootings, rather graphic as I recall, and some big sensational headline. I was appalled -- it was something that would be very frightening to kids. I had the manager paged, and told him I though it should either have a cover board over it, or better yet, be displayed somewhere besides at the front check-out lines. He told me that he had had "numerous" complaints, but that there was absolutely nothing he could do about it, it was a coporate thing. Couldn't even give me a phone# to call, just one of those feedback forms. Sheesh!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I find your story interesting. I have quite a bit of experience with the local WW and know for a fact they would have honored your request. I have seen some pretty clapped out, beat to death tools they have accepted as returns. And I have seen some really obnoxious guys demand some unreasonable actions that they have very politely accommodated. I'm not suggesting that you acted inappropriately but just pointing some of what I have observed.
I think your experience is not typical and can not be applied to the entire operation.
JW
"I think your experience is not typical and can not be applied to the entire operation."
Hard to say, since I didn't give them another chance. However, the fact that I got the same story from their corporate customer service people indicates that my experience stems from company policy, not just some local employee being a hardass. That being said, it occurred probably 10 years ago - perhaps their policy has changed in the interim.
You did say in your original post that the corporate customer service person told you if you could identify the store and the approximate date when the original purchase was made she would try to help you, correct? What did you do?
JW
"You did say in your original post that the corporate customer service person told you if you could identify the store and the approximate date when the original purchase was made she would try to help you, correct? What did you do?"
That's where I hit a dead end. My mom couldn't pinpoint when she had purchased the gift (she's one of those early xmas shoppers), so there was nothing more I could do.
"I think your experience is not typical and can not be applied to the entire operation."
"Hard to say, since I didn't give them another chance."
Mark,
From the moment I did business with that company, I knew for sure it was only a matter of time before they went bankrupt. The shear number of screw ups on a single order which took over 7 months, YES SEVEN!!! months to straighten out.
These ranged from charging me large shipping fees in advance for backordered merchandise which never showed up (which is technically illegal), to shipping the wrong merchandise, and months later sending me just the base of a jointer I ordered without the machine!!! With no intention of sending me the machine as it had been "discontinued" even though they applied the entire purchase price to my credit card!!! As compensation they gave me a $25 gift certificate, and when I used it they sent me the wrong merchandise again! (ordered a 10" blade and they sent me a 8".
No company ever in my life that I have dealt with was so dishonest and/or incompetent.
Jon
Don't take this the wrong way but just because something has a price tag on it does not mean that it was paid for when it left the store. Theft is a huge problem in all of the retail world and insisting on a receipt is one way that the retailer has to combat this problem which costs us all in the long run
"Theft is a huge problem in all of the retail world and insisting on a receipt is one way that the retailer has to combat this problem which costs us all in the long run."
This is exactly the reason that most retail establishments have return policies specifying store credit only, without a receipt. This is also exactly what I was asking for. A thief wants cash - a thief is not interested in stealing a couple of very large clamps, and then exchanging them for smaller ones.
I suppose it didn't occur to you that the store might want proof of purchase to ensure that the I-beams weren't stolen (a common problem in retail)? I think the Customer Service offer was actually pretty helpful, but hey, if you don't want to play that way...
Scrit
>I suppose it didn't occur to you that the store might want proof >of purchase to ensure that the I-beams weren't stolen (a common >problem in retail)?
>
I suppose it didn't occur to you that it is not a common problem in retail for someone to steal a large item and turn around and try to exchange it for a couple of smaller (presumably more easily stolen in the first place). Retail theft generally occurs for two reasons: 1) the thief wants the product he steals or 2) the thief wants to convert the stolen product into cash, either by returning it for a cash refund or selling it for cash. I seriously doubt you could find anyone stealing things only to exchange them for other things, except perhaps for something locked away in a secure case.
>I think the Customer Service offer was actually pretty helpful, but >hey, if you don't want to play that way...
>
I think the offer was pretty unhelpful, which you might understand if you bothered to read the entire thread. I'll help you out: 1) I didn't make the initial purchase - the items were a gift 2) the gift-giver was not able to identify the date the purchase was made. Thus, not helpful at all, and thanks for the snide comment about "me not wanting to play that way".
Bottom line is that there are many retail outlets which have developed return policies which deal with the problem of gift returns without reciepts (a problem which I'm sure is not limited to my issue). I don't believe that asking WW to allow me to exchange a product which was clearly purchased from them and was carried as part of their regular merchanise for a different product, was all that unreasonable. End of story.
<I suppose it didn't occur to you that it is not a common problem in retail for someone to steal a large item and turn around and try to exchange it for a couple of smaller >
It may not be common, but it DOES occur. Retail theft is a major problem and opportunist theft of even the most unlikely items does occur. The point I was making is that just because YOU are honest you cannot assume that everyone else is - and you can't assume that the retailer will see it your way, either.
<Thus, not helpful at all, and thanks for the snide comment about "me not wanting to play that way". >
It wasn't intended to be snide, but I feel that they did give you a reasonable opportunity to show that the items had been purchased from them. At least they made some effort. As another contributor has said, their returns policy may be flawed, but when the purchase was made your mother bought into that policy, flawed or otherwise, and after all there's always eBay or a dozen other ways to dispose of the items.
Scritb
>> The point I was making is that just because YOU are honest ...
Yes, but the point you are _missing_ is that the store would have been no worse off by making the exchange. If someone steals a $50 item, the store is out $50. If the thief then comes back and exchanges the $50 item, still in saleable condition, for twp $25 items, the store is still only out $50. So what is the harm of exchanging items without a receipt? No refunds without a receipt makes perfectly good sense. No exchanges without a receipt is a sign of a company that has it's head wedged.
>It wasn't intended to be snide, but I feel that they did give you a >reasonable opportunity to show that the items had been purchased from >them.
>
I disagree. I did not ask them to do anything which could possibly hurt their bottom line. I ended up taking one of their sale flyers into Home Depot for a price match, and spending more money than the gift clamps were worth, on standard bar clamps. Thus, WW not only lost that additional sale, but theoretically they've also lost every woodworking item I've purchased in the interim, as their poor return policy has caused me to spend my money elsewhere. I'll leave it to you to decided whether their rigid adherance to a poorly-thought-out policy has hurt or helped them.
>As another contributor has said, their returns policy may be flawed, >but when the purchase was made your mother bought into that policy, >flawed or otherwise, and after all there's always eBay or a dozen >other ways to dispose of the items.
>
Regardless of whether my mother (unknowingly) bought into their policy, and regardless of whether there are other ways to dispose of unwanted items (did Ebay exist 10 or 11 years ago?), their policy sucks. I don't like it, and I've voted with my wallet. I told this story merely to illustrate a possible reason why WW might not be doing too well.
I appreciate you guys letting us know what's going on at Woodworkers. It's also interesting to note that not all the employees know what's really going on. I understand the company's position on why, i believe they are afraid of losing a mass of employee's they must also be concerned with massive theft. With x-mas approaching i feel they should let someone in the management know, if they haven't already, about what's going on so they can better prepare the employees. If an employee were to go out and spend a lot of money on holiday gifts and then lose his/her job, that would be a poor situation. Over all i'm disappointed with what's going on. Getting to the conversation about the returns... Since it was ten years ago shouldn't you give them another shot? I've been there many times and i've returned stuff without receipt, even recently getting credit back on my credit card without a reciept. So i think the whole chain is a little bit more aware of who they're dealing with, a great deal of contractors, and how good they are with keeping reciepts.
If anyone has any other sites besides the SEC to find out info on woodworkers situation please post it, i'm having a hard time finding out what's going on..
Thanks, D
>Getting to the conversation about the returns... Since it was ten .>years ago shouldn't you give them another shot?
>
I suppose...if it were in my best interests to do so (i.e. - if I needed something really quickly, and they were my only non-mailorder option). Otherwise, I'd rather continue to buy from those who have given me good customer service in the past. I'm pretty loyal.
My two cents are:
1) Can't wait for the liquidation sale on the new Delta X5 cabinet saw they just put on display in the local store, as well as many other goodies
2) On-line stores can't match a trip to the local store, however, the better on-line retailers (personal experience from Dell on a monitor that did not work) will send you a new item overnight and include a shipping document to sent the bad one back. Less than 24 hours later I was back in business.
A couple of weeks ago, I went over to the Woodworkers Warehouse in my area which is across the street from Home Depot, to take a look at the Delta Radial Arm Saw. As soon as I walked in I knew the place was in trouble. The store looked horribly understocked, the shelves looked empty. Signage looked old, floors were dirty, not a welcoming site. So I find a RAS in the back and its an old discontinued Delta Professional RAS with an old price tag. The store rep didn't even know they had discontinued the model and had a new one out. Further they didn't even have the current Delta catalog in their rolodex. I knew they were in trouble so I just left and about a couple of days ago I saw this post.
Sometimes you can tell the health of a company by the way there store looks.
On the Home Depot thing, they changed their return policy about a year ago, now they require a receipt for all refunds or you only get store credit and with that you have to provide a drivers license which they enter into their system so they can track your return activity. This was done to eliminate returns from people who steal small items and then try to return them for cash. This is apparently a big problem throughout the country.
Thanks,
The Sicilian
I've been shopping at WW since it was Trend Lines in Chelsea, MA in 1984. I like them and hope they can turn it around.
I thought they'd just come out of bankruptcy a year or two ago. I could be wrong, I hope, but that doesn't seem to improve their chances.
Your are correct. They came out of Chapter 11 but it seems they do not have the ability to stay out. Now it seems that it is either go Chapter 11 again or liquidate. Either way, their current financial strenght (really, lack thereof) and performance history don't bode well for continuing in business.
Any way, I believe my original advice is good advice. I can't always say that. :=)
JW
I'm not sure if this is the company that I'm thinking about but wasn't Woodworkers Warehouse name used to be know as Trend Lines and if so what ever happen for them to change the name at that time? It could be if a buisness has to file bankruptcy and change it's name every few years maybe they should hang it up and go out of buisness.
But then again this is just my oppinion and we all know what those are worth.
Sincerely;
James Clark
Jim,
Same outfit. Trendlines was originally a mail order operation. They later started WW, the storefront operation and after that Golf Day. Apparently the Golf Day operation was the primary culprit leading to bankruptcy. Or, maybe Golf Day losses obscured the fact that WW was not that strong an operation but that is what they blame. Golf Day no longer exists.
My understanding is that the mail order part of Trendlines had become so insignificant that the corporate name Woodworkers Warehouse was more representative of the organization and the name was changed.
Similar, but on a far grander scale, what was once Dayton Hudson Corp., founder of Target, changed their corporate name to Target, Inc. because Target has become such a dominant entity in the organization. The point is, you can not read things into name changes.
Every company has a responsibility to it's shareholders/investors to maximize the return on their investment. Sometimes this means minimizing the loses. If reorganization under the bankruptcy law gives them the best chance of meeting that responsibility, then that is the course that should be taken, even if it has to occur more than once. Sometimes it works, sometimes it fails. But the choice between bankruptcy and liquidation is always difficult.
JW
About this time every year - when the weather gets cold, I go through my van and clean out anything that shouldn't freeze. In the process I collect all the unused, unopened junk that I bought for no good reason for various jobs long forgotten. I load it all in dirty buckets and haul it around to HD, Lowes and anyone else I might have purchased it from. I have the store scan it all and if it comes up on their system - I return it. Most of this stuff is <$10 items each.
This year $118 at Lowes, $156 at Home Depot - all returned for store credit, all without a receipt. I usually empty these store credit cards within a couple of days buying more stuff I might not use.
Bottom line, I appreciate this level of service, it makes it easy for me to buy 2 when I might only use 1. In return they get a customer that spends almost 200x times the return amount on a yearly basis.
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