I’m new to this forum and love it. I have been woodworking for years either as a cabinet maker or carpenter. Always working for someone else.
As I read through various threads i have come to realize that there are all kinds of woodworkers out there, be it amateur, semi-pro , or professinal. I believe that woodworking is an art, a calling, and although it isn’t my full time profession yet it is my full time obsession.
I was just wanting to get a little info from the Full time Professional woodworkers in this forum.
How did you go from being amatuer to full time everyday woodworking professional?
Also what aspect of woodworking you specialize in.? (ie; cabinetmaker, furniture maker)
I have been doing odd commisions here and there for years but have always been too timid to quit my “day job” and persue my passion for furniture making. The payout on these pieces have been very profitable but I have turned down allot of commisioned jobs due to the time I would have to put into them.
Just wondering how others have made this transition.
Replies
Well John, I started in this game pretty much from school thirty years ago and went through formal training and qualifications. I worked in workshops for years and later ran my own business full time when I lived in Houston.
I was offered a teaching job at a college back in my native UK, and being sick of the almost never ending miserable bloody Houston climate I decided it was time to move home and that's where the bulk of my income comes from now. I still run my business on a part-time basis making stuff for people and scribbling the odd article when the mood takes my fancy. It's nice being an amateur furniture businessman-- no real pressure, take on what I feel like, do it almost when I feel like. Essentially I'm a designer/maker.
Now business. Business has nothing to do with cosy bucolic dreams of horny handed artisans timelessly and lovingly crafting wood in stone built thatched workshops. Nor does it have anything to do with views through Georgian paned windows and stable doors of besmocked ruddy faced rustics guiding the plough behind mighty Shires and shaggy Highland cattle contendedly chewing cud.
Business is cruel. Business is mean. Business isn't romantic. Business doesn't suffer fools gladly. Business is all about making money. It doesn't matter how you make money, but business needs the stuff sloshing about all over the place.
If you can make plenty of money as a furniture maker, then you'll need to describe yourself first as a businessman, and only secondly as a furniture maker.
Cynical? Moi? Ha, ha. Slainte.
RJFurniture
And this from the guy that is filling the minds of the craftsman of tomorrow. Sheesh, there's really no hope left.If you want to be artsy fartsy furnituremaker don't do it.But,If you are are posessed of insanity and blatant disregard of "success" by society's standards...If you are unfit for anything else...If you realize that there are guys out there that REALLY know what they are doing and that you're going to compete with them...If you have a vision for furniture design that you've never, ever seen before...If you realize that Sam Maloof is an anomoly...If you realize that nearly every "successful" furnituremaker is supplementing his(her) income with seminars, books and building crap...If you realize that this is just as stressful as most other jobs when you've got bids, deadlines and TEDIOUS work...If you realize that by union pay scales millworkers and cabinetmakers are one very small step above laborers in spite of having the highest overhead...If you realize that you have to be REALLY good at this to even hope to make a living at it...If you realize that you have to ignore my advice because there is nothing else but furnituremaking to keep you from committing suicide...Then, maybe then you're driven enough to have a prayer of making it...Lee (keeping company with Sam Adams after a great day.)P.S. Oh yeah, I do this for a living, have been for several decades.MontanaFest
I like the way you think.
I ,like most everyone, am wanting to make a decent wage for an honest days work.
I would merely like to have my family live well.
I know there is ALLOT of competition out there and some very good craftsmen.
When I am dead and gone I want my great grandchildren to say to there children "Great Grandpa made this when my mother was young"
And if by chance one day for some total stranger to look at a piece of furniture I have made and inquire about the artisan that made it.
I have ran my own gutter company for a few years and have managed a cabinetshop before so in my mind I think business wise i can handle it.
Its the passion to do things different or to try something new that I would be afraid of losing.
Yeah, forget your ego..., the part where you want to look out of your coffin and see something, it ain't gonna happen.Amateurs build great stuff, and still feed families with day jobs.Feed your family. If you try to do it building furniture you'll end up mired in really crummy work, like boxes..., building boxes. Kitchen cabinets pay bills but the work sucks. The truly sucky work of cabinetmaking is where the dough is and it's stifling.The fun stuff, we're all trying to get to.Keep your day job.Lee (on a hot date with Sam Adams, he's wooing me and I'm falling under his spell..., tell me more, you sweet Sam Adams)MontanaFest
Well, I'm drunk and my soul is open..., sometimes my soul cries.There are two vital things that make a furniture maker these days, mechanics and artistry.Frankly, Sgian is the best mechanic I know, bar none. He's a true wizard of the how-to's but as an artist he sucks. Sgian, please make the trip so we can go toe to toe, I'd love it and you know you have no greater fan than me when mechanics are concerned.Okay, so let's assume you have the mechanics down, a mere 15 years or so of study, intense study.Now, what's driven you all these years is this screaming ghost of furniture in your mind demanding release. You have the mechanics down (at least enough to get by) and now you want to build this sh!t that's been haunting you late at night.Will the public accept it?Probably not.They fear you'll screw up until you're dead.Then you'll be happy...?You're dead, remember?I build pretty neat stuff. Am I a success? In my mind I am but my wife works awfuly hard at a real job. (Poor deluded creature, she thinks I'm successful, too)Keep your day job.LeeMontanaFest
Ha, ha-- ha, ha, ha.
"Frankly, Sgian is the best mechanic I know, bar none. He's a true wizard of the how-to's but as an artist he sucks."
I love the ringing endorsement of all my skills, Lee.
Unlikely to make Montana though, much as I'd like to.
I did see your ugly mug and some of your over elaborately carved splinterings in my edition of Woodshop News a week or two back. Slainte.RJFurniture
That "sucks" part was poorly done, sorry about that. Ugly mug? That was my stunt double..., I couldn't afford Redford so I had to take who they sent, it was short notice.Overcarved? If some is good, more is better..., like good beer.Heh, heh, he..., I never said mine didn't suck.You know, I have few regrets but one is that we never got our ugly mugs in the same room before you defected. Now I'm thinking Edinburg instead of Hawaii when the Lear gets out of the shop. Do you Scots have runways yet?LeeMontanaFest
Lee,
Well said.
For me woodwork is only a hobby, will probably always be, partly because I have been cursed with a very long line of woodworkers in heritage and partly because I enjoy it.
You are a "Professional" woodworker and there are only a few of you left in these times. "Professional" means trying to be the best at what you are doing, every time you do it. There are only a few, who can be best at something.
The way life is changing, mass production with sophisticated equipment, custom is something which will continue to fade away.
I'm in business in the food industry and on a good day, I produce 300 tons an hour, of what people eat. Try and compete with me in your kitchen with price and even quality and you have no chance. I can assure you, five to ten years from now, almost no-one will cook at home, as it will simply be too expensive. Custom furniture will go the same route, only the "Professionals" will survive. In fact, I believe the furniture industry is already there.
Oh, I don't know, I think there will always be people like me, people who have to do a particular thing to survive. Woodworkers, musicians, actors, and others will pay a very dear and lifelong price to persue their lifestyle. Hopefully there will be a few loonies out there with a bit of dough to feed us. I said it before and it's exactly what I mean, I'm unfit for anything else. I know artists, musicians and actors similarly afflicted.There will also always be throwbacks that cook. True, the masses will gorge themselves on prepared foods but for Ruthie and me, well, it's just too dang salty. Hah, hah, ha...LeeMontanaFest
Lee, You are right on. It is an obsession for some of us I suppose. Maybe obsession isn't the right word. More like no alternative.
Cheers,
Ray
A big AMEN to that, Sgian. Almost anyone can be (or become) an artisan but it takes a strong dose of mercenary to be successful in business. - lol
Texasjohn - The one great truth about a successful business is that it doesn't lose money over the long haul. That means that you have to be brutally honest with yourself about the costs of being in business and the amount of money you have to generate to cover those costs. It's great to have the talent, passion, and skill to make "stuff", but if you can't sell enough "stuff" to at least recover the cost of making it, you're going down.
Before you get too deep into your plan, hook up with someone who can walk you through preparing a business plan. You tell them what you want to make and sell and they help you understand the real cost of doing it. Once you know that, you'll know what you have to charge - and can then determine if there's enough of a market to make it work for you.
G'day Texas... I assume you've tuned into the "What to Charge" discussion going on in another thread? That provides a bit of insight into issues regarding "income" for woodworkers. Particularly the part-timers.
I'm also new to this forum. And relatively new to full time "professional" woodworking. After 25 years of corporate work I finally got out of the rat race down here in West Oz. Anyway, your question raises a point that I think is maybe being missed in the discussion of "What to Charge". We part time / wanting to be full time woodworkers do it because of the pleasure of creating in wood. I now do commission work for people who want something very particular (design wise, wood wise, etc). And my work comes in mainly by word of mouth referrals. I put in long hours, undercharge, but receive part payment in satisfaction. And it's not my only source of income.
It's not as if there's a huge population of part time plumbers out there just chomping at the bit to give up their day job and go full time plumbing. And to do exceptional plumbing work for less than going rates. Maybe that's a bad analogy, but woodworkers like us are in it because we enjoy it. And some are lucky enough to do it full time. But we're still "ankle biters" compared to the big pro workshops who can take on big, complicated fit-outs, etc. Although I wonder if those in that "corporatized" end of the trade still REALLY enjoy working with wood, or if it's just a business and a buck.
We are a legitimate if only very small part of the overall furniture market. I think most of us would not make ends meet trying to just work at our hobby. There will be the few success stories of woodworkers creating exceptional products and attracting a niche clientele prepared to pay big money for exceptional design / quality. But unless you have some kind of outlet / gallery promoting your stuff, I think you'd have to become a small time "pro" doing what the big guys do on a smaller scale.
Although I work at it "full time", I'm still doing "one-off" type projects. I think (but don't know for sure) if you had to start chasing work and doing "budget" projects where you had to keep a very close watch on your time, costings and margins etc etc re you quote rates, you might find some of the joy going out of the work. This may not be any real help to you in your decision. But it's a thought process I've been going through re the whole "part-timers" debate.
texas,
Well, young feller, it was away back in the summer of '76. I had a falling out with the guy I was working for at the time, and said goodbye. I had bought a new house the year before, and collected a windfall of a tax refund from all that interest I got to deduct, used it to buy a shop full of stationary tools. Had the hand tools because I'd been working wood for others for 4 yrs.
I had been doing some moonlighting, and so I thought I'd just get those few jobs I'd promised out of the way before I started looking for real work. Haven't had to look for real work yet, though it hasn't been easy. To get right down to it, there isn't anything else I can think of, to do. God knows there's been times I would've gladly walked away if I could imagine doing something else.
It means you work long hours to get the job out on time (to pay the mortgage).
Develop your skills to be able to do the work none of the clients' woodworking uncles know how to begin. Inlay, carving, chairs.
Learn to work fast enough to get the work out, or put in lots of hours. Be your own toughest critic, or learn to like warranty work. I HATE warranty work. If you can see that blemish, chances are the customer will too. They won't say"it's ok, I know how many hours you already have in it". They won't know, or care. They will expect you to get it right the first time, or do it over for free.
For at least the first fifteen years or so, woodworking had best be your hobby in addition to your job. That way you can justify all the time it takes to develop the skills, and learn the history of styles, and the characteristics of different woods, and the amount of time it takes to do all the different operations you have to do to be able to give the client a realistic estimate for that piece you've always wanted to build, but never did.
Be prepared to eat the occasional job, because you did something really dumb, like forgetting that a partner's desk has TWO front sides, when you figured the estimate. DOH! Your education just got deeper! You just got the incentive to work faster! The bills are still due at the end of the month!!
Lots of hours, did I mention the long hours? You'd better love the freakin job, because it will take up a lot of your life.
Folks will come in the shop, and say, "It smells so good in here!" You won't notice, you haven't noticed that "shop smell" in years. "That looks just as good as the ones at the furniture store" "That much? For ONE chair?" "My uncle built one just like that/bought one just like that for $50" "GAW! I think I'll go into the furniture business if the money's that good!" Just smile and nod.
"The two hardest masters I ever worked for were named 'bread', and 'cheese'. Samuel Taylor Coleridge
On the other hand, I got to see my two kids grow up from the time we brought them home from the hospital, til they went off on their own. Watched them playing in the yard from the window over my bench. Kissed their boo-boos, fixed their broken toys then and there. Had a little workbench for them in the shop, next to mine. Got to keep some of the furniture I made. Have met some wonderful people who have turned from clients into friends. And it's pretty cool to have a Willard clock in the shop, or build a set of chairs for the Governor. There are rewards.
Have fun, I wouldn't trade a minute of it.
Cheers,
Ray
Of all the replys yours gives me hope. Everyone that has discussed this make very valid points, but yours is exactly what I would like this to develope into. My wife and I have discussed this many times and the only hold out is me. I am young and am willing to put in the long hours, but the business I am in now pays the bills. Someday hopefully I will find someone as picky as I am to take over day to day operation.
In a few months I will break ground on my dedicated workshop, and hopefully in time I will hone my skills to turn this into a full time profession.
I am looking forward to looking out my shop windows to see my children playing.
Thanks for the positive outlook.
texas,
Well, gee, I thought I would discourage you. If you reread the post the negative's column is alot longer than the positive's. My serious advice to you is this: don't do this unless you cannot imagine doing something else for your livelihood. Woodworking is a wonderful hobby. It's a tough gig to earn a living at.
Best wishes,
Ray
dear tj -
You already received at least 5 lifetimes worth of other's experiences, and I have to agree with almost all of it. The fact is that this is such a provocative and important question for a lot of woodworkers out there. So much so that a couple of weeks ago I decided I would try to write a book on exactly this dilemna, but it is slow going.
The bottom line is that you should listen to everyone's advice and then sleep on it for a while. If you wake up one morning and know that this is what you are going to do, then you'll need to work on a lot of different things, but for the moment keep it to the essentials:
- Can I (or those dependent on me) afford to have a low-paying unsteady income for quite a while?
- Am I willing to seriously take on all the aspects of running a business that I don't particularly like?
- Am I willing to compromise my freedom in the shop in order to make ends meet?
best of luck whatever,
DR
Based on those replies, one way to look at it is that in today's market you'll be happy woodworking full time only if (1) you lack the skills to do anything else and are unwilling to learn any, or (2) you are very, very selfish. Figure there must be something else you could do that would allow your wife to stay home, give your kids a stay-at-home mom, send them to better schools, give them piano and ballet lessons, buy your wife the big house she really wants, etc., etc. Will your presence in the shop make up for all that? Doubtful. I know a number of artist types and their lives tend to be about themselves, not about anyone who depends on them. I think they'd pretty much admit the same.
Nothing you do to earn a living is a hobby. An almost certain result of choosing woodworking to make a living is that you'll end up liking woodworking a lot less than you like it now, thereby defeating what sounds like your main purpose. That's just the way it works with almost any business.
Bear in mind that your view of the world at 35 isn't the same as at 25, at 45 isn't the same as at 35, and so forth. In general, it's best to make choices that leave your options open.
No doubt it's obvious that this kind of decision involves tradeoffs. I guess the point of my post is that many of these tradeoffs involve persons other than yourself.
My best advice to you would be first to sit down and have a long talk with yourself and decide where your priorities lie. If the self-satisfaction and ego massaging that are such an integral part of woodworking are paramount, jump all over it and don't look back. But if monetary issues, spending time with your loved ones and providing health care coverage for them are what matters, you could probably do better in another field, even an unskilled one.
I did cabinetmaking on the professional level for 30+ years. I learned an awful lot in that time, worked with some great craftsmen, and have a lot of wonderful memories about some truly one-of-a-kind projects I was involved with. The money and benefits were pretty respectable back in the "good old days", but that's ancient history now.
Things have changed a lot in those years. Profit margins are down, competition is fierce, the cost of health care is outta sight, and if you need to hire some qualified help, lotsa luck! Things may be somewhat different in your neck of the woods (I can see the Cincinnati skyline from my yard), but I would think not by much.
The intent of this post is not to take the wind out of your sails, although it may seem that way. I would love to see some new blood come in and resurrect this dying trade that I put so much time and effort into. I'm just trying to help a fellow artisan make an informed decision.
If I were you I would listen to what Lee and that weird name guy? Sgian Dubh have to say. I've been doing this since 77. Most guys have been to school at least a little. Being pro is probably the biggest reason I haven't. People like my work and I've had good money periods and bad money periods. Right now is really bad money period. I can't (nor do i have enough life left) imagine doing anything else.
One of the reasons i went into it was for my kids. I had 9 of them little rugrats. But it was to be legacy to them. To leave them homes and furniture. No how far that got? I'm still trying. I've done a little although they will have a #### load of tools :)
Add to the fact that the furniture industry is almost all going to end up as part of the chinese red army industrial complex. Were financing our own death as we did in the 30's with Japan.
People have less and less "history" in there blood and the desire for something that lasts. And with the blind erasure of the middle class they are in a catch 22 situation. trying to have a decent lifestyle working there butts off and stretching the money to accumulate all those things while pretending everything is fine.
You may undoubtedly think i am a pessimist. But I been around along time have read and seen a lot of history.
Do yourself a favor. Have a nice shop Learn to build nice things and give them /or do them for people that appreciate them. there aren't that many left. The few that are are probably calling Lee and Sgian Dubh while I write this
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