Hey, I’m glad to see another Missourian on here. I live in the Cape Girardeau area and have been pondering the same thing for a couple of years. I don’t know if it’s on the decline or if it just never was a strong tradition in the area. This is my take on it, basically on the east coast there is a long tradition of furniture building in some states. This tradition is supported by guilds and societies that proliferate craftsmanship and design. In addition look at all the schools for woodworking in the eastern states. Now if you look at the west coast it seems to be a highly creative region where woodworking takes on a new level of self expression and experimentalism. Again look at the abundance of educational opprotunities that are available out west ( California, Oregon and Washington state). There also seems to be a lot larger segment of the overall society in these areas that are affluent and have the resources to afford high end custome work. Now in my opinion while there are some affluent people in this region they are more career and family driven so the resources get invested in those areas and not fine furniture. Also look at the housing industry in your area and the realestate market. This area seems to be just a transitional stop for a few years for many. If you are going to live in a diferent home in five years you arent going to spend thousands on furniture that wont match the new home down the road. The funny thing here is that if you look at the antiques that many families carried for years they were built solidly to stand up to being hauled across the country and found homes where ever the family settled down. Then they had less money to spend on material goods so they made the money go farther by buying quality, now a family has more to spend but buys crap knowing that they won’t want it in five years. UNforunately in this area everyone considers cabinetmaking high end wood working so no one strictkly builds furniture. I believe that in a few years as families in the area become more established and the housing industry slows you will probably see people investing more in high end furnishings.
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Replies
Good thread. I'm in Illinois, and I agree with you regarding what consumers believe is quality.
They have so much garbage being sold to them in the furniture stores masquerading as quality furniture, that they are all brainwashed a bit into thinking that IKEA is good stuff.
All my customers are older, professional well off (financially) people who are probably in their last home, and finally want high quality furniture and cabinetry.
Younger people are so busy changing their minds every 2 to 3 years that I believe that they don't want to spend alot of money on furniture that will be in their garage sale in 3 years.
My sister is a fine example. She and her new husband recently purchased a new home. It's 7000 square feet and cost around $1.5M. She drives a Mercedes, and he drives a 7 series BMW. They just filled it with furniture from World Market. I laughingly told her that I'd never been so insulted in my entire life, and her immediate reply was that she know's she's going to redecorate in a few years, and doesn't want to spend for "the good stuff" until she know's what she wants.
The american way, I guess.
Jeff
I agree Jeff, good thread, I am in Jackson, TN just down the road from KelsoChris in the Cape and I agree with the statement, but in my mind, it has been going on for a while now. I have a very difficult time and get very frustrated, justifying the cost of something I build. Most of the time I will build furniture for myself, and now the kids are out in their own houses, there is a list a mile long of what they want. On the occasion someone sees what I build, and "absolutely falls in love with it" the ask a price, I give them a fair price I believe, then it's "oh, I had no idea it would be THAT much" We live in a throw away society from the cars we drive to most of the everyday items we buy, and I suspect, but won't swear to, that most of us that reply to this thread will be over the 50 yr mark plus/minus. So I will be content to build for myself and the family, sell an occasional piece, but certainly wouldn't want to try and make a living at it today. Not only a decline in those who will purchase, I think there is a decline in the number of crafts people that work wood, but that may be better discussed in another message. Thanks, Rick
Yet another Missourian chiming in. I live just outside the St Louis area and have had a lot of acquaintances over. Invariably someone will remark on the original designs I've made for my family over the years and ask if I would be willing to recreate the piece or design something similar. I always respond that if they are serious we can sit down at a later time, and sketch up something so I can give them an honest bid. That usually stops everything right there, but on the occasion when they do seem to realize that the wood isn't free and my time should be worth something, they come over, sit down and are aghast that highly figured wood and a small one man shop cannot compete with the garbage they see at the chain store. I have even lost "friends" that were insulted over the fact that I need to charge labor to them. I remind them that my primary income may be instrument repair, but, shop time is shop time and there are so only so many hours in a day. I even had an old friend's wife say my price was fair "THIS IS FOR ME", implying that we had a special bond that should preclude me making any money for my work. I replied by asking if she would come over and perform her primary job for me at no labor cost. She got upset. My friend was very embarrassed and has not brought her back when he visits. (Or maybe she just doesn't want to be around me, since I'm so arrogant as to think I need to charge actual money!)
I guess we all have a very thrifty attitude around here and everyone seems to believe they are special and should get "the deal". Oh well, I just make my wood work when I want and if someone really is one of my (very small) circle of true friends they get things just for the asking. Otherwise, pay up. Funny thing is the people I will do free labor for always try to insist that they pay my shop labor rate, and the ones who are acquaintances who I run into a lot, but never offer to get closer, are always the ones to assume I'll work free.
I know quite a few crafts people who agree with me on this and who have given up on trying to earn their living with their woodwork. I see them doing amazing work and I am very glad that we can keep high quality woodworking alive, albeit starving.
Sorry for the rant.
Thos.
I'm from a different part of town. But if you don't mind, I'll chime in.
I see the same issues here in the NE of the USA. Folks want woodwork for free. They don't even want to cover material as times. They know handmade furniture built by a good woodworker is better than their particleboard junk. All they think of is price. Not value. They need another motivation other than just value sometimes.
Here's a conversation I had with a co-worker a while ago.
We were talking about their new $400K house, and how he would like me to build a couple of pieces for him in the future. (his wife wants my work, but he's pretty frugal) I told him that I'd be willing to work with them when they were ready. I said that he should not feel obligated to buy my work, and if he found something they liked in the stores, they should consider buying it, as it would cost less. But I added this note, When it came to furnishing their new born daughter's room with furniture instead of the temporary changing table, and crib, that I would like to talk to them. He asked why. I explained how most of the cheap stuff out there was made of particleboard with formeldahyde (sp?) and other chemicals that will outgas for years. I asked him if that was the environment he wanted his newborn to sleep in 8 hrs a day. He became very serious, and concerned. I explained that handmade furniture could be made from non toxic materials, and finishes, and could be built so that it could last a lifetime if cared for properly. So the new light of his life could use the same furniture for her children too.
This baby girl is only a couple of months old now, but when she outgrows the crib, I expect a call from her parents.
Thos,
You have seen the truth of the modern world - it goes by fad and fancy with "long-lived" not really on the purchasing agenda. Of course, there are exceptions; some people still prefer a timeless design and items built to work properly for centuries rather than months. They are few, now, such people and things.
Incidentally, if you would like to view a fine essay concerning the origins and motivations of the throwaway society, get hold of Adam Curtis' 4 hour television programme "The Century of The Self". It describes how Sigmund Freud's brother (another psychologist) and the early 20th century captains of industry in the USA got together to create what has become modern advertising and the associated consumerism. This generates demand, you see; and therefore a never-ending supply of customers and profits - not to mention work.
But to return to the cost of real furniture....
I have often contemplated buying a well-made piece of the real stuff from an acknowledged master, partly for its intrinsic beauty and utility but partly to use as a model to improve my own woodworking. However, I cannot afford it. Most successful (read "earning a living from it") makers want many thousands or even tens of thousands of pounds/dollars for any sizeable piece. Even I , who will cough up a wodge for something like a Marcou plane (a thing of timeless beauty and utility if ever there was one), cannot go that far.
In short, one needs to be rich to afford bespoke furniture of high quality. Perhaps there is stuff that is nearly as good for a lot less. if so, I have never found it - probably because it all (excellent or mediocre) takes 100- 400 manhours to make so the cost will reflect this.
So, I spend the money on tools and make my own. I scavenge for free wood, which folk will also throw away despite its beauty and utility as a material. Their fadiness is my gain. Naturally the friends and family get free pieces but only if I want to make whatever it is they desire. The pension supports me as I play.
I have never worked for a customer and never will. Those rich enough to pay for 200 man hours seem to have got that way by being parsimonius and they will carp, delay or otherwise be difficult at pay day. Also they will demand silly or ugly things that you do not wish to execute. A pox on 'em all! Let them go to Ikea where everything is a fad and their lust to save will be met. Those who appreciate good furniture should get it free. (So who is going to donate to Lataxe's collection)? :-)
Lataxe, strictly a hobbyist
Edited 7/26/2007 12:51 pm ET by Lataxe
Hi,
I see your point, and I am keeping everything at the home shop strictly a hobby for now. My instrument repair is keeping me at the business shop around 65 hours per week. (Wish all those were billable hours! Ah paperwork.) So I dont see a lack of customers willing to pay for quality. I charge $79/hr (160 pounds?) and usually have a 45-60 day wait from service agreement to completion. I formerly thought that I should charge less, but, found that I was catering to customers that had throwaway instruments. I have no trouble with those instruments as they serve as gateways to build desire for the people who will require the personal and custom work later in life. I do no advertising and rely on referals.
I definately see a desire for fine work out there, but, have no desire to pull back from my present customer base to build up a new line of business. My problem is those people who ASSume my aquaintance entitle them to my time and materials. Those stacks of materials required either time or money. I would never think of asking one of my drinking buddies, who happens to be a barber, to provide free haircuts to my family, but, many people seem to believe this is acceptable behaviour.
I agree that those friends and family members who desire my work shouldn't be charged, but, I find far too many who would be unwilling to do anything for me. " I've got dozens of friends and the fun never ends- as long as I'm buying" (Styx). ;-D.
Thos
If you were to spend the time that is typically required to make a business successful in each of the areas, i.e. sales, marketing, packaging/shipping, design; not to mention the manufacturing process; you're probably selling your products CHEAP!
I have found that word of mouth works better than anything else I've ever tried. That minimizes sales and marketing time for me. I also try to do as much work as possible visibly, i.e. on the front porch. Another sales gimmick I use.
With the country aging as it is the market I aim for is the older generation (Like me as I'm over the hill, so to speak.) They are typically much more settled and financially established.
I live within 12 miles of an Ethan Allen factory and nearly 25% of the local population work there. But the folks who work there are not my market and yes they get incredible prices for culls (pieces with imperceptible flaws). My uncle got a solid maple mirror, approx. 30" x 42" with beveled mirror glass for $15. It had a scratch on the back!
Also, I can't believe that some of you folks would actually charge friends and/or relatives for your work, much less the materials! You've got some nerve for expecting to get paid. Are all you Mid Westerners a bunch of cheapskates!? HUGE GRINS HERE!!!!!!!!!! Very much just kidding.
The best part of this whole woodworking thing is that you do get paid for having fun. If it's nothing more than your satisfaction from a job well done and the enjoyment you had from overcoming all the obstacles along the way.
Hang in there you bunkies, that rut ain't so deep!
Best Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Not sure what field this guy is in, I thinnk software, but this pretty much sums this discussion for me. "
Art suffers the moment other people start paying for it. The more you need the money, the more people will tell you what to do. The less control you will have. The more bulls**t you will have to swallow. The less joy it will bring. Know this and plan accordingly.
Hugh Macleod, How To Be Creative: 15, 08-22-04
Rick
".... The best part of this whole woodworking thing is that you do get paid for having fun. If it's nothing more than your satisfaction from a job well done and the enjoyment you had from overcoming all the obstacles along the way."*******Once your hobby becomes your career, it rarely still brings the satisfaction it did as a hobby. As a hobby:1. There are no deadlines.
2. The only one you need to please is you.
3. There is little to no recordkeeping.
4. If you are not performing your hobby, it is not costing you money anyway.
5. As a hobby, your equipment is typically not used nor abused to the degree it is when it is your career. Equipment that would last a lifetime for the hobby won't if it becomes a career.
6. Hobbies do not require sales and marketing. Businesses do.
7. Fine craftsmanship does NOT sell itself. Most people can't see what you see. You have to educate your prospects. They don't understand fine finish, dovetailed joints, or solid wood furniture designed and assembled in a way to incorporate the movement of the wood.We could go on and list probably a hundred things that dramatically change once the hobby becomes your career.Greg
<!---->•••••••
Exo 35:30-35<!---->
"Are all you Mid Westerners a bunch of cheapskates!?"Now wait just a minute! Mid-Westerners want good value and a good deal- I'll allow that. Some are cheap- I'll allow that, too. Howevah, we tend to get more for our money by being cheapskates.Laugh all you want.Some people are perfectly willing to spend the money required for hand-made custom items. A craftsman needs to find these people, not just try to sell to everyone. Some of these people have a lot of fine antiques, and I think antique shops would be a good place to find some of them. A lot of the antiques I see have been badly refinished, some to an unbelievable level. Lots of bad stain and poly on pieces that would have been impressive in their original finish. We need to find them, make them need us and get referrals.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
highfigh,
I was just joking, as I'm sure you knew. Some of the cheapest folks on this planet live in my neck 'o the woods.
I really don't think this malady is confined to the Midwest either. It seems to be a trend that is likely caused by the throw away mentality.
One of my suggestions was to perhaps try a different approach to wit:
I think antique shops would be a good place to find some of them. A lot of the antiques I see have been badly refinished, some to an unbelievable level. Lots of bad stain and poly on pieces that would have been impressive in their original finish. We need to find them, make them need us and get referrals.
I have a friend who used to work in the finish dept. at the local Ethan Allen factory, left and started his own refinishing business. He's swamped with work and has been at it just six months.
Oh yeah, he left because of declining business. That tells me something also. The decline is not just limited to our fine woodworking.
I'm what you might call a serious hobbiest with the expectation that I soon will enhance my retirement with woodworking, but not just from a financial perspective.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"Some of the cheapest folks on this planet live in my neck 'o the woods.I really don't think this malady is confined to the Midwest either"People in the Mid-West are cheaper! We have the patent on being cheap! Get your own malady! lol
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Bob:If this thread and the other thread on pricing have something in common, it is that the furniture business is changing. When industries are in a state of flux, it is very hard for those engaged in it to make sense and respond to what is happening. Our experience helps build mental models so that if A happens, we do B and so on. Faced with fundamental change, these hard-won rules no longer apply.Clearly, globalization is having its effect as well as changing tastes, changing family structures and changing demographics. The values represented in the stereotypical "flinty New Englander" and Conservative Midwesterner" are in decline. If a couple are "living together" they may not want to invest in furniture that will outlive their relationship!I don't know if you recall when those stainless steel barbecues first appeared. At first they were very expensive (~$5k) and the size of battleships. Now you see them at Lowes for $500. Of course, a lot of the original quality has gone, but the customer doesn't care; it looks enough like the original. And so it goes with furniture, etc.We live in a Pareto law of consumables; 20% of the cost gets you 80% of the product. How much would the pro's make if they skipped the last 20%? For many, the trade-off is worth it. Unfortunately, it's that 20% that "makes" the product and takes the most time. Funilly enough, consumers are going full-boat with certain luxuries that have special appeal to them. So a guy living in a 7000 sq. ft. house might fill it with crap, but still have a custom chopper. Unfortunately, the rosewood sofa table with brass inlay doesn't shout loud enough to the neighbors - unlike that chopper!In general, when industries change, you never want to be stuck-in-the-middle. Whatever area or segment of the market you intend to target, you better understand your customers and respond to their needs, wants and preferences and be their first choice. I know it sounds basic but you better have a point of view and be the best with that.Regards,Hastings
Hello KiddervilleAcres,I live in New Zealand and our furniture industry from smal to big is in real trouble because of the cheap imports.
My work is manly for other furniture makers, I am a chair and fine furniture maker.specialised in making that they cannot make.
I had 6 cabinetmakers that always neede special chairs or cabinets.
In the last 4 years, 5 of them closed the doors and the last one is just making ends meet, Now I found 2 more cabinetmakers who need chairs and they also are just surviving.
The cheap imports are killing us, they the importers can land chairs for NZ$25.00 or less and sell those for 3 times that to the shops and they increase that to NZ$ 225.00, so they are OK. but killing local produced furniture.
I can not buy the timber for NZ$25.00 to make one chair.
Talking to other people in the industry say that 70% of furniture manufactures have closed down in the last 2 years, and that is bad!
I am surviving because I am in my mid 50-tich and am well of.
Making furniture is my hobby and job, I love it.
I hope that people can see that losing whole sectors of manufacturing will make there live poorer.
Greetings from down under Bernhard.
Good morinig Bernhard,
Your post paints a discouraging tale to me. I, like you pursue woodworking as a hobby but it is not my work. In all the jobs I've ever had I never worked in a production environment where output was a measure of your success.
New Zealand is one of the many places on earth that I hope I have the opportunity to visit some day. When I was a youngster (many years ago!) I used to watch a TV program called "Adventures in Paradise" about a merchant sailship that plyed the seas of the South Pacific.
I made a vow to myself that some day I'd do the same. With any luck maybe I'll knock on your door some day and we can share our experiences about woodworking.
Best of luck in your pursuits,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Greeting Bernhard...
The same thing you have experienced in NZ is happening here. Not long ago, I drove through Hickory, North Carolina which that area in N.C. at one time was the basic core of many U.S. furniture manufacturers production.
Once upon a time and not so long ago the parking lot of those furniture facilities were filled with cars of employees and most of those cars were made with pride in the U.S. made also. On the recent trip that swung through that area, I still found the parking lots filled to the point of over-flow!
But... not with the vehicles of plant employee's! The parking lots are now busting at the seams with Conex containers from China.. Taiwan.. Indonesia.. Viet Nam.. India.. etc. etc.! There are a few cars out on the perimeter of the lots of employees that unload those containers and ship them to the U.S. distributors. And I repeat.. a few!
And just a note on our WW machines coming from the Pacific Rim. I have just recently sold my existing machines and up-graded with Pacific Rim (for the most part) machinery. I can afford to do that at this point of life as all the pieces are in place for retirement and all debt retired.
I could have opted to up-grade with European machines of very fine quality. But.. I would have spent about 5 times the amount that I did to do so and stay with single machines. I am almost 60 and a hobbyist. I cannot justify getting a return on the premium price I would have had to pay in my lifetime and I could not afford the best in years past. What was up-graded cost approximately $6 K in U.S. dollars. To get the same Euro machines which are indeed top quality, I would have had to spent at the least $20,000 U.S. dollars.
So... I executed with care and comparison in choosing what I could afford and justify. I went for the best quality that the manufacturers that have been forced to go to the Pacific Rim to remain competitive had to offer. But.. I agree with cssholtz (sp)... because it is made in China, it is not automatically junk.
Indeed there is junk being made in China and on our market locally, but because that is what the manufacturer specified for them to make. I opted to pay a few dollars more and get the best designed and quality coming from the Pacific Rim being offered by our manufacturers.
And all Pacific Rim is "not equal" because it comes from the same assembly line. IMO.. it is foolish to assume so! If you take the time and compare that becomes obvious and increases your options and true value of $$ spent.
All my life I have had to deal with reality. What is happening is today's reality and I will adapt to it as I always have. I don't see I have a multitude of choices other than to do just that!
Sad.... but still reality......
Regards...
Sarge.. john thompson
Edited 8/4/2007 10:08 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
SARGEgrinder47
The problem isn't China's low wages! Don't forget China is extremely poor in natural resources and thus must import things from all over the world.. food, material, energy, etc..
The reason China is doing well is because she reinvests nearly everything she makes in new robotics and state of the art high tech equipment..
Go visit their factories you won't see starving peasants soldering transiters into computer boards, you'll see state of the art put and place robotics at work.
America doesn't want to make those investments so we are losing jobs as a result..
Afternoon Frenchy...
As I stated.. they are very capable and any poor quality of goods coming from there is not necessarily a reflection of poorly trained or poorly equipped facilities. You have to produce what the buyer specs out for you to produce. I see them as doing just that.
And with that... back to production on a smaller scale as coffee break is over and I'm back to the you know where down-stairs! :>)
Regards...
Sarge.. johh thompson
chairmannz
Dismal as your situation is there is light at the end of the tunnel..
China is finding out that it does not have the people to do all things for all people. even with 1.3 billion they are actaully running short of labor.. thus emploees are demanding and getting pay raises at an astonishing rate..
Imagine if your income doubled every four or 5 years? sooner or later you're going to want nice things and when chineese start to make those demands her power and much of her steam will go out of her..
Don't forget the Chineese are relatively poor when it comes to natural resources.. they need to import most goods.. Food material energy etc.. al;ll have to be paid for..
What makes China a real powerhouse now really isn't her cheap labor.. rather much of the money that she has been making is going into modernizing things.. not like you and I do where we buy a cost efficent piece of equipment, but ultra high tech state of the art modern technology.. That will continue to serve her well long into the future..
She's able to make computers and cell phones now so cheap because of the investments she's made in modern robotics and assembly equipment..
So you actually are part of New Zealands problem.. you'd rather do things by hand one at a time, while they have a high speed elctronic wizbang capable of making that same item for fractions of a cent for labor.
Don't feel bad it's that way here in America as well..
From your 36962.11 response I sense that you're quite discouraged. Perhaps it's time to be adventurous. I mean in a woodworking sense.
As an example: What is the predominant style in vogue in the Mid West. I once knew a man from the St. Louis area who specialized in Mission Style, mostly because he and his wife like that style. He also was the gentleman that helped me complete my Fine Woodworking magazine collection too.
He told me to be creative, do something different. Don't follow the crowd. And here I am fascinated by the Queene Anne style, go figure. As it turns out though, few folks in my area know much about the QA furniture style.
I was shaping a cabriole leg the other day on my front porch and some folks stopped and asked what I was making. I told them and they want me to give them a quote on a piece!
Sometimes opportunities happen when you least expect them.
I truly hope things work out for you all your associates and I fimrly believe they will. Maybe try a different approach, but NEVER QUIT!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I wouldn't worry too much. This has been cyclical and is bound to turn around in time. It's up to folks to showcase their work and educate the people what custom work really is. Of course most people might not be able to afford but they can still learn an appreciation of the craft. You will always get the person who shop the local discount furnitre store and wants something a bit different and expects it to cost less because you are working in your garage.
I think one of the reasons people don't buy expensive hand crafted furniture is that it has no measurable resale value. If you go to Sofa Express, buy a $150 coffee table and after a few years you don't want it anymore, you stick it in a garage sale for $20.00 and get rid of it. On the other hand, if you commission a furnituremaker to make a custom made coffee table for $750.00 and after a few years, you don't want it anymore, what do you do with it? Send it to a consignment shop and try to sell it for $200 or put an ad in the paper? Myabe you'll get lucky and someone will buy it. Like it or not, people's tastes change and every few years, they want new furniture in their home. They don't want to spend $1000's for furniture they'll end up getting rid of in less than five years and there really is no place they can sell it and get good money for it. It's just the way the market is.
Hi all,
I'm originally from central Missouri and just had to respond. I think that as one poster commented, economic factors are a huge issue. I think that the Midwest's heyday was the mid to late 19th century, especially in gateway to the west locations like MO. If you were an immigrant or a newly relocated yankee, you definitely wanted to establish yourself in your new town as someone who succeeded. You had a fashionably well built house, nice furniture, etc. I also suspect that many of the housebuilders were transient workers, immigrants who went from town to town providing carpentry, plastering, and painting services. I think that many of these folks followed the population as it gradually moved west. The Great Depression hit the midwest hard. Many in my family and hometown still live like it's 1933 (I'm sure that many of you know exactly what I'm talking about). After the depression hit, I don't think that the decorative arts trades ever recovered there. When I restored Victorian homes in Fulton, MO everyone kept commenting that no one knew how to do that type of work anymore. I think that was definitely true in many small towns. There wasn't a demand and so people found jobs where they could make a living. After 75+ years go by without anyone ever knowing a quality custom furniture maker or millworker or plasterer, people don't think that those trades even exist anymore. They find an alternative and that is what they budget for. I think that there can always be a demand for quality work, but you will definitely need a good public relations campaign in that part of the country. Even now as a woodworker in Washington, DC, we constantly have to educate our clients and the public as to the amount of effort and expense that is required for quality woodworking and service.
Good luck out there guys, you're fighting the good fight.
-Joe
I think it would be good promotion of our art if there were some famous woodworkers debating on the Jerry Springer show, it could end with a custom chair fight.
This isn't limited to any one trade. I work in computers. I have helped countless people with their problems until I just finally stopped doing it for nothing. It was taking up too much of my time being nice. When my wife's cousins asked us to come over for a drink one evening and "maybe Steve could help us with a computer problem", I said "Would you invite your plumber friend over for a drink and have him fix the faucet?". Well they didn't like that but it was true. The plumbers in my wife's family (a couple of good sized businesses and one independent) charge us about $125/hr and NEVER give any work away. You get the job done, get a receipt, and pay the bill, end of story. So when I say a mere $45/hr and they balk, I just say no problem, and sit down and enjoy my drink!
Once one of the plumbers was asking for help and I told him $75/hr and he said that would cost him too much. I told him that his rate to put in my hot water tank was too much also at $125/hr but I expected quality work done on time. Never heard from him again and won't use him in the future.
I do help one couple for free, my mom and dad! But that's to pay back for all those stupid things I did as a kid........ I can never square that 'bill'.
Let me state for the record that I am not a professional woodworker, but I have encountered the same reactions that others have mentioned here as far as quoting prices to those I work with and aquaintences. For the most part when family wants something it ends up being a christmas, wedding or birthday gift and not a sale. ON one occassion I was asked by an inlaw of an inlaw to build something for her to give to my inlaw as a gift, she was dumfounded when even charged for the materials. YOu would think that people would be fed up with a throw away society. As fast as technology changes in this day and age and as fast as cell phones and computers become obsolete that people would want to invest in durable goods like well crafted furniture. I will probably never go pro but as long as I can build things for my family that will be appreciated for years to come and occaisionaly sell a piece to buy new tools with I will be happy.
All,
You folks are not alone.
The influences may be different in different parts of the country/world but the end result is the same. We in the states live within the throw away mentallity which I feel has a lot to do with it.
When you tell someone that table will cost $800, they shudder and walk away. I doubt that you could possibly convince them that it takes a lot of work just to make it. I also think that they don't care either.
They see a "quality, solid oak table with 6 chairs" at WallyWorld for $199, complete and they expect you to make it for less! They don't realize it's machine veneered pressboard and really don't care either. It's their perception of quality. There are many arguments/reasons for this; unfortunately it has become reality. In the old days pressboard didn't exist!
I think I might be inclined to seek out those half baked antique restorations and consider restoring them properly, as was mentioned by a previous poster. Might be able to get them at a reasonable price and sharpen your finishing skills at the same time, and resell them.
Who knows, you might stumble upon a real sleeper worth a lot of money!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Winemane,
There is always an issue of people not willing to pay what something is really worth.. They often succeed because those with the item are in desperate situation regarding money and are forced to sell for below market value..
Being removed from major population centers like New York and Los Angles where such an item might have enough buyers willing to pay it's fair market value means that there will always be those who buy items for less than their real value..
That's always assuming that those creating the items really do create high quality items. In all my years I've never heard of anyone selling stuff they consider poor or average..
Many years ago I had an aquaintence ask me if I could build her a display cabinet for her. I didn't have much of a shop then but said I'd look into what it would take and get back to her. I designed it, drew up plans and figured out the cost of the materials. This was all I was going to bill her for as I figured the knowledge I'd gain in the building would compensate me for my time.
The cost of the materials was - IIRC - close to $200.00 (wood, hardware, glass and mirrors). She actually told me I was crazy and that she could get one similar in the JC Penney catalog for less (this was true). And that is what she did.
I asked a while ago how it was holding up. She told me a chair had tipped into it and broke one of the glass doors. It cost too much to replace the glass so she threw it out.
Moral of the story: Some people don't deserve fine furniture.
ChuckN and I have nothing of value to add to this discussion.
ChuckN
I'm sorry, you failed..
You needed to explain to her the value of your work. As a novice that would be difficult to do, but with experiance you should have been able to point out the differances between a mass produced item and a handcrafted one..
Pointed out that if she had broken a piece of glass on yours, you already knew how to put the glass in and where to buy glass at an affordable place so the cost of the repair would gave been affordable for her..
I know selling isn't what you want to do,, but as a sole proprieter that's what you need to do.. You missed out not only on selling that display case but a lot of follow up work..
Selling done properly is education.. you are giving people reasons why they should buy your stuff rather than mass produced stuff. You need to understand the value of mass produced stuff (chances are most of your tools are mass produced) and the value of handcrafting.. and where those differances mean something to the most budget controlled person..
In a sense your faulure to sell her a display case resulted in something used briefly and thrown out rather than something that had real value over a long period of time (which is the real advantage of handcrafting)...
Many years ago I had an aquaintence ask me if I could build her a display cabinet for her. I didn't have much of a shop then but said I'd look into what it would take and get back to her. I designed it, drew up plans and figured out the cost of the materials. This was all I was going to bill her for as I figured the knowledge I'd gain in the building would compensate me for my time.
You know this has been the way I've been doing things. I'm more than happy to make my friends and family furniture. As long as the project is interesting and they're willing to pay for the materials I'm game. I really want them to have fine furniture, or at least my version of it!
But very few have really taken me up on the offer. People seem to be hooked on the disposable life style. It's odd in this day that people are like this, one second complaining about global warming and polution.... Then next buying disposable furniture at some Swedish box store...
Buster,
I think it is a given that the U.S. is aging rapidly, i.e. the Boomer generation reaching retirement. That said I would think that the older generation would/should be the focus of marketing quality furniture. More settled, more disposable income and not so much of a throw away mentallity.
I happen to be one of them boomers and my father always drummed quaility vs quantity into my head. Perhaps that is the reason most of our furniture is roughly 30 year old Ethan Allen, still in like new condition.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 7/31/2007 7:02 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob, When I was about 12 year old my parents bought new furniture for my bedroom, they impressed upon me how important it was for me to take care of this furniture and my mother showed how to take care of my furniture and made sure that I did just that, my youngest son still has this furniture today and it is still in good shape.The busy lifestyles that parents with these aged children lead these days does not include a provision for this type of education, they're lucky to get home early enough on a week night for the kids to get their homework before going to bed, it is just easier not to have to worry about what happens to the furniture, so they just buy cheap stuff and replace it more frequently.Not until these kids grow up and leave home will these people probably show an interest in buying nicer high quality pieces of furniture. In other words the empty nest is always nicer than the furniture in the full nest. Once the kids leave the parents get tired of the endless shopping and start to look at things that have lasting value, this could be why the age of most of my clients is between 45 to 60 years old.I have found that it is just easier to tell people right up front that my prices will be significantly higher than what they see at the furniture stores, but that I will however make something for them that will be unique and have lasting quality. At this point they either become intrigued or disinterested. Either way it saves me the time it would take to do drawings and estimates only to find out that they were expecting prices in line with the furniture stores. Sometimes I think people forget that they are shopping for furniture not financing.Most large furniture stores are not the business of selling quality furniture, they're in the business of selling financing. All the ads spend more time selling financing than furniture and any business that makes their money on financing needs to sell a product that has a limited life span. If the people buying this crap would ever stop to figure out what they are actually paying for the stuff once the financing cost are included they would be appalled, and would finally figure out that they are being duped.Ron BreseIf you're too open minded your brains will fall out.Edited 7/31/2007 12:30 pm ET by Ronaway
Edited 7/31/2007 2:29 pm ET by Ronaway
I have just one question... how many of us own chinese made tools? The world is a different place. See here is the thing. How many of you own a sawstop saw... How many are getting by just fine with less than the best? Grizzley... Or a peice of junk PM2000 (made in Taiwan in a factory that maked multiple brands) Plainly our tools are getting made over there as they are getting purchased due to price in mass to the point the manufacturers cannot make a living making the stuff domestically. Is this not the same thing... There are some who carefully purchase the best but my planes are old stanleys and I only own one Lei-Neilson... Drew
I wouldn't want to get into a debate of U.S. made versus foriegn made. Yes your old Stanleys were American made but maybe more than a hundred years ago by someone making less than what somebody working in a present day Chineese makes today. Yes factories today can turn ut solid quality products especially with modern technology as it is. The problem is that unfortunately it costs too much in some cases to pay the work force what they think they are worth...... don't get me wrong I believe in fare wages and that a person should be able to provide a living for his family. You know what though I have seen the minimum wage go up 4 times since I joined the work force and I hate to say it but a lot of the output I am seeing aint going up any. It's pretty scary when you can't afford milk because the corn they feed the cows with is getting bought up by the new ethanol plants ( many of which aren't even online yet).
I have just one question... how many of us own Chinese made tools?
My name is Chris and I own Chinese made hand tools...
My very biased opinion is that Chinese made tools set a new standard in quality and craftsmanship that goes far beyond anything on the market today.
Of course there is the other side; very often Chinese junk is produced according to specific requirements of Western manufactures.
Chris
Galoot-Tools
I make my living as a carpenter, home improvement contractor and custom cabinet maker. If I can buy a door made in a factory cheaper I will I will order factory made dovetail drawers (just as good as any I have made with a router jig) and they cost me less then the cost of the materials. Now on the parts that show well there I spend time that's the key give the consumer perceived value at lower cost to yourself and you can make money. People do not want traditional wood drawers that slide on hardwood runners they want ball bearing glides with shock absorbers. (Blum's Blummotion) They want cherry stain with a hard Catalyzed lacquer finish not natural finished cherry selected for grain and minimum sap wood with a hand rubbed finish that needs to be maintained. They want perceived value not quality and in the end I want to make money not just spend my free time cutting wood. This is not a hobby for me it is a business I make furniture and custom cabinets that are as good as the customer demands and no better. Why should I care if the doors are just veneered panels that is what the customer was happy with and I sold it at a profit. Now I have sold cabinets with doors with book matched panels and desks with fronts made from a single board so that the grain matched across the frame and drawer fronts. But only when the customer requested that level of detail and was willing to pay for it. I am always looking at ways to save costs and still deliver quality. Most all my paint grade panels are now MDF unless the customers want Hard wood panels. Why 2 reasons cost of materials, easy of finish MDF is flat and smooth Hard wood needs to be planned sanded and then sanded again (MDF only needs to be sealed on areas it is machined) And MDF and partical board use what would otherwise be waste so less trees are cut down to make a panel that looks the same once painted.The key is are you in this for the joy of working with wood or are you out to pay your bills. If you are out to make money you make what the customer wants for the price they will pay. If they will only pay for crap then you give them crap or better yet you buy the crap wholesale and sell it retail, charge them some to install it and then go golfing with your free time. As a cabinet maker I build built in furniture people are willing to pay more for because it adds value to their already appreciating asset their home. For most people their home is their only appreciating asset and from a financial stand point the only place you should spend money on credit is toward an appreciating asset. (That of course does no stop people from buying stupid unneeded items on credit it just makes it a bad investment Like a 75,000 car that is worth 50,000 the day you drive it home)I have no problem getting $3500 for a custom vanity cabinet for even a small bathroom that is mostly plywood and a hardwood face frame (I made) with hardwood drawers and doors I ordered, then finished with pre-catalyzed lacquer then get another $500-$1000 to install it. Try and get someone to pay $3500 for a side table of equal size or a dresser with the same number of doors and drawers even the same person that payed for the built-in cabinet might find the stand alone piece to expensive. Go figure.Well good luck to all The key is do what you enjoy if you want to make money at it you have 2 options find the clients that will pay for what you make. (the internet is great you can live anywhere and sell to any market) or build what the customers you have are willing to pay for.
Edited 8/1/2007 11:12 pm ET by MFournier
Morning Chris...
Heard some good things through the grape-vine about your hand forged blades. Keep up the out-standing (according to the word on the street) work.
Where is Galoot Tools located in Atlanta? Just curious and not of any sgnificant importance!
Regards from down the street in L'ville...
Sarge.. john thompson
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