Woodworking suppliers – ethics and Lee V
A week or so ago, there was a thread where the originator was really POed because the supplier was not willing to give him a refund for a product he bought a few weeks before the supplier reduced the price in a sale. There were a lot of opinions about the situation. My opinion: He bought the tool at the posted price and, while he has a right to ask for the sale price, he has no right to expect them to change the deal after it’s concluded.
But, that’s not why I started this thread. I bought a couple of books for my wife from Lee Valley for christmas. The books were on seed saving and grafting and they proved to be very good books.
Well, last week a letter showed up from Lee Valley. Curious, I opened it. A check for $4.00!! The book on seed saving had dropped $4.00 in price after Christmas and Lee Valley was refunding the difference between what I paid before Christmas and the reduction in January.
They were under no obligation to do so. Even if I noticed the new price and requested a refund, they were under no obligation, legal or moral, to do so.
Thanks Lee Valley. That’s a company I’ll keep spending my money at. (Besides, that Veritas stuff is really good)
Replies
Wow, great story, thanks! I've got stuff on order from them...
Charlie
I agree!!! I bought a table top from them that was excellent and the manual with it had detailed plans for building a stand and table despite the fact they SELL one of their own. I also had some questions regarding a countersink set and they went out of the way to answer my questions; I was wrong but they were most polite in explaining my error.
Just bought a Veritas shoulder plane from them that is excellent; real quality tool. LV has a "customer focus" that is beyond most retailers that I have run into and I intend to keep purchasing from them.
I agree that Lee Valley has a really terrific customer service ethic.
I have bought stuff from them for years. A while back I was placing an order, and for some reason I complained about something I had bought 2-3 years earlier (I can't even remember now what it was).
Anyway, a few minutes after I got off the phone, I got a call from someone at LV asking me about the complaint. She offered to take it back for a refund (it was some item under $20).
I was so impressed with the gesture, I refused, since it struck me as unfair to them.
Lee Valley goes way "above and beyond" in their service. I read a similar story about 2 years ago over at WWA. One of the guys had bought a rule of some sort, it arrived and he was quite happy with it. Some time later (a couple months?) he received notice from LV that they rules had not been made to their specifications (the lines were not engraved, but rather marked instead? somethin' like that) and they were contacting everyone who bought that item so they could replace it with the correctly manufactured one.
I'd say Lee Valley is a rare bird! I've always liked their stuff (Veritas) and shop with them whenever I can.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
OK, I might as well pile on this one. I recently placed a fairly large order. 4 of the items were back-ordered (must have been a good Christmas for them!). I was charged for shipping as if the whole thing would ship in one box. As each back-ordered item arrrived at their warehouse they shipped it out, even though they could have waited a week and bundled 3 items together. And of course, no additional shipping charges, even though it must have cost them a bunch more. Good products, great service - my default first place to shop!
I never paid much attention to Lee Valley until reading Leonard Lee's book on sharpening. I have been shopping with Garrett Wade since 1974 for higher end tools that are not easily available or unheard of locally. The last few years there catalog has shrunken as far as quality and quantity and thier once good customer service is basically the sh.ts now. I have never cared for the asthetic quality of LV's tools but ordered a catalog and was blown away at the content of it and also the fact that they carried most of the tools that Garrett Wade has eliminated and others never have.I have spoken twice on the phone with them thier people have been knoledgeable and genuinly pleasant to deal with. Garrett Wade is now history with me. No wonder why LV beat them and the other USA catalog makers in sales last year. Maybe they should wake up.
Lee Valley's service and commitment is phenomenal. They define customer service. One caution though - if you expect it from other companies, you could be in for disappointment. Once I had bought a bunch of misc. things, and returned a couple. More than a year later I happened to mention to one their reps that I had bought a left-to-right and right-to-left Blindman's tapes from them, and one of them was in a metric case even though both tapes were foot-inch. He insisted on replacing it, and asked that I send back the one with the metric tape so they could track down the problem. On a different occasion I bough their bench kit in which they supply the slabs, hardware and drawings, and you build your own base. Close to completing the bench I called to get some help. In this conversation I made some suggestions on suggestions on how the drawings (plans) could be clearer, and happened to mention that some of the supplied bolts were defective because their heads peeled off when you tightened them. I told them I had replaced them locally. They insisted on sending me a complete hardware kit by UPS 2-day air. And they did. Maybe one day I'll build a second bench.
About 6 years ago I purchased a digital micrometer from Lee Valley. It began to "lose" its reading about a year ago. I would open it, the reading would display for a moment, then change. Very frustrating. I contacted Lee Valley about this three weeks ago. They asked me to return the calipers for examination. I recieved an e-mail from them last week telling me a new caliper was in he mail - free of charge. They even paid the shipping both ways. Find another company to beat that.
Keith
I can't believe the quality of Lee Valley's customer service. I recently placed an order for some smaller hand tools....which was lost by fed ex. I called fed ex and got the run around from them for about a week, to no avail........then I called Lee valley, who put a claim into fed ex, and reshipped my order that day via 2nd day air. I'm immensly happy with their service and product, and will order again enthusiastically.
While we're telling LV stories...
A few years ago I was in Ottawa, doing my thing. My local contact asked me if I had any interests that needed his help in resolving. "Lee Valley," I said.
We arrived at the store, and I was overwhelmed with the place, and wandered about, rather aimlessly, I guess. I do remember asking one party some questions about a particular product. Quite honestly, he discouraged me from buying it. I wandered about some more, and, somehow, came to the realization that all, and I really do think all, of the counter help was behind the counter, and that they were all waiting for me! I was the only remaining customer, it was several minutes past closing, and no one told me to "Get out!"
Yup, an amazing place, with a wonderful ethic.
Yep, nothing but good times at Lee Valley! I've returned a couple of things with nothing but friendly helpful responses. My dad recently exchanged a grinding wheel three times in a row (for picky reasons), and they had no hesitations. And their catalogue is such good reading, regardless of whether you're looking for something to buy (though, i have a hard time picking it up without adding something to my wish list). Not everything that comes from lee valley is flawless, as some will contest, but overall they offer great value for the money and very admirable customer service. Others would do well to emulate them. But surely someone out there has something bad to say about lee valley? Can they really be THAT good?
Jesse David
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before," Bokonon tells us. "He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
"Not everything that comes from lee valley is flawless...." Only because they don't make everything, LOL! They carry "stuff" just like the other catalogs do (the small-parts-holder for the router comes to mind). Anything with the Veritas name on it, I have no reservations about. And, as mentioned, they carry other quality brands.
Awhile back, someone complained on a forum (FWW? WWA?) about their bench slabs (the economy versions) being fingerjointed. I can't remember the details, whether he wrote a letter, or "Mr. Lee Valley" came onto the forum, but in the end, the description in the catalog was changed to emphasize this fact.
Ahhhhh, the testimonials go on.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
ttt
Telemiketoo,
I can't say enough good things about Lee Valley. I even went so far as to inquire whether they ever planned to go public (stock option) and the saleslady laughed and said that they get that question ALL THE TIME.
They're way too smart to do that because once that happens (go public) then all that matters is the bottom line. What this generally means is that all the things which make for longevity in a company are ignored because the stock holders are only concerned about profits. You can then forget about producing a good product, selling this product at a fair market value, good quality control, integrity in dealing with their customers and, I also believe that this should include the fair treatment of their own employees. Failing this the company will only get worse and worse until it ceases to exist. Craftsman tools (and others) come to mind. We've seen this over and over in this country which is why everything is now stamped with 'Made in China'.
Not so long ago Wal-Mart coined the phrase 'Buy American'. Now all you see in their stores is pallet after pallet of goods from China. I saw that first hand over a two years ago which is the last time I shopped there.
Back to Lee Valley. Leonard Lee's book, 'The Complete Guide To Sharpening' is another example of their commitment to the wood working community. This book should be on every woodworkers bookshelf. I do compare prices and Lee Valley is usually less than others or right on the mark for non-LV products. If I recollect some of my latin, 'Veritas' means TRUTH. What a concept for a company to espouse: truth, honesty, integrity. I find it amazing that their business practices are totally ignored by most companies. Their Customer Service is even open on Saturdays! That is truly going above and beyond, in my opinion.
When I purchase one of their products I KNOW I am getting value. I just purchased their new spokeshave and I marvel at its design and the quality of construction. If you use spokeshaves, do yourself a favor and take a look at theirs. It works!
They actually take PRIDE in what they do. And they BACK IT UP. I sure can't say that about some of todays other wood working products. I have their router top (and many more things) with all the bells and whistles and have never wished for more. If you email them with a comment or question, you WILL get a response and in my experience, within 24 hours or less.
A few years ago I needed to flatten a large walnut crotch coffee table top and needed a large scraping plane. At that time LV did not offer their scraper plane so I ended up with the Lie-Nielsen which cost $195 (Dec'02 prices). Today LV does offer a scraper plane for $129. The L-N now goes for $210. I could have done the same job with the LV plane as I did with the L-N AND saved $80 to boot. I'm not getting into the LV vs L-N thing here - not the point. My point is that LV has definitely filled a niche for quality wood working tools which we can buy with confidence because we will get our money's worth or more.
One last thing about L-V and that's truth - there's that WORD again - , truth in marketing. If you look carefully in their fine catalog or web site, after the product description you will generally see the country the product originated in: Canada, USA, China, Japan. The Hartville catalog does this as well. However, take a look at the Woodcraft catalog: you won't see this information in their catalog. I have spent A LOT of $$ with Woodcraft over the years, but now I am much more conscious of what I purchase. So if a company doesn't care enough to tell me the whole story about what they sell then that tells me that they don't really care about me either.
I don't mind spending money, but I HATE to waste it. If I need any wood working tool, hardware item, or garden tool, the very first place I look to is Lee Valley/ Veritas.
Regards,
Phillip
P.S. One last thing which goes - somewhat - with what I just wrote. Some of you may not believe this but here it is anyway. I have a 3/8-inch drill which I have had since the middle 70's. It has stamped on its side, 'Model 4916F, Made in the U.S.A., J.C. Penny & Co.' That is not a misprint. And you know what is more amazing? IT STILL WORKS! This drill has been 'through the mill' and looks it. The brushes have NEVER been changed though they probably need it even though it works fine. The chuck isn't too pretty, but still holds my bits. Can any of us say that about ANY tool we have bought in the last 2-5 years?? Perhaps this would be a great subject for a new thread.
I recently purchased the jointer blade sharpening jig from Lee Valley and finally used it for the first time last week. It did need a minor modification to allow it to work correctly with my Grizzly 8" jointer blades. I think there was a bit too much meat on the underside of the jig that made it difficult to get these narrow blades down to the stone at the correct position/angle.
Otherwise, it is a well made product and it cut my sharpening time by a factor of about 5! I too was really impressed with the quantity of stuff in their tool catalog and will buy from them in the future.
I haven't used a honer like that, but always wondered if it rocks very much as it slides along the knife.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
<I haven't used a honer like that, but always wondered if it rocks very much as it slides along the knife.>
highfigh,
The tool I bought is not for honing jointer blades while they are still in the cuterhead. It is a device that you clamp the knives into for sharpening on a stone or large lapping plate. Think of it as a larger version of a standard chisel or plane-blade honing guide.
mlb -If you had to modify it, you should let LV know about it. They would probably appreciate knowing all the details and your input. Could save the next guy from having to do what you did. Never know.Here's the link: [email protected]Regards,
Phillip
I guess I'm going to be something of a naysayer here. I once ordered some 3/4" x 3/8" UHMW strips from LV; they were described in the catalog and the website as "The width is cut to close tolerances so that it fits well in a 3/4" slot and completely avoids the annoying galling that you get with many slot runners". Great, I thought, perfect for a crosscut sled. I had tried precising ripping some of this stuff previously, without much sucess. Guess what? They weren't even close to the correct dimensions, and the edges were rough-cut. No way they would work as slot runners.
They were too cheap to bother with returning, and I later found some good UHMW runners at a woodworking show, but the experience left a slight sour taste about the company with me. I'll still buy from them; I just don't have the wildy enthusiastic opinion about them that alot of people have.
The few times I have ordered from LeeV. I was generally quite pleased with the service and prices. They went out of their way to fix a problem I had with a chisel I received. It was missing its ferule and they shipped a replacement chisel when the ferule they shipped didn't arrive (FEX- EX issues) > I shipped the incomplete chisel back to them upon receipt of the replacement and they immediately reimbursed me for the shipping. Good folks.
One exception was a handful of square drive bits that I ordered. The metal they were made of was very soft and every screw I tried them in would round the corners of the bits. I complained and was contacted by a service rep who told me that because I hadn't bought them before from there, then I could not complain about a decline in quality. And that because they were so cheap, well, that's what you get. Frankly I was truly surprised by her attitude. I haven't had occaision to order from them again. Probably just coincidence, but I wonder if I will order froim them again. That last interaction sort of soured me.
Lee Valley is fine as long as you don't bite on the little gadgets they sell.
"Lee Valley is fine as long as you don't bite on the little gadgets they sell." CStan,I couldn't agree more: they're a good company, but some of the items they sell are cheap junk (like the drill bits they sell to chairmakers who work in green wood). Caveat emptor.-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
This is a sequel to my earlier posting about Lee Valley caliper. They asked me to send in my old one for inspection and they looked up the date that I bought it. That was six years ago. After they recieved my old one they e-mailed me to say they were sending a new replacement. It turns out that the model I bought is no longer available - so- they also sent me a cash rebate for the diference in the price. I recieved the replacement and damn -it had a defect. It is a digital caliper and the display would not switch between metric and Imperial. I phoned them and they are sending another new one. Get this - they told me to keep the one they sent and to use it until the next one arrives, then use a prepaid mailing label to send it back at their cost. All this for replacing a six year old tool that many sellers would not even consider particularly after six years and no receipt.
Keith
In my town there is only one supplier of quality woodworking tools. Perhaps if there were more I could complain. But... These guys are great. I once broke a part on my LV router table. I needed it right then so I went down to the store to get the part.
It turns out that they don't sell parts. They'll give you a whole new one but you cannot buy a part. I was mostly bugged because they wouldn't give me a part and my shop was 45 minutes drive away.So I called to complain. I said, " Is Leonard there?" and within 20 seconds Leonard Lee was on the phone and willing to joust with me about the quality of the steel used in the manufacture of brackets which hold the router to the table in their router table design. He was passionate and well-informed on the product and I can claim that the replacement table has run miles of wood in the ten years since and I feel that if I have another problem I'll probably get a brand new table.
Not too bad to have as an only supplier of quality woodworking tools.
Overall I'd agree they are good to do business with. I guess there can be some inconsistency in the quality of the customer representatives and that shouldn't overly affect my judgement.
I must say that their designs are clever and well carried out.
I guess from my experience I'd say that order from them but accept that if you are buying something cheap you can't complain if it's cruddy. At least that's what the customer rep said.
"No way they would work as slot runners."Barry,Interesting what you just wrote about UHMW from LV because I just built a miter sled with strips of the same material today which I purchased from LV as well. These were advertised as 3/8 x 3/4 x 48 inches, just as you said, and they did in fact meet those dimensions and they did fit the miter gauge slots of my Craftsman table saw. That was all I was concerned with. However, they were somewhat 'rough cut' as you mentioned. These appear to have been cut by some mechanical method because I once tried to cut this stuff with my band saw and that was not fun. Not at all.I just took a look at one of my other two sleds and one of them does in fact have nice, smooth UHMW strips (laser cut?). The other set of strips is similar to the above-mentioned new set, but works without any problems whatsoever. If your set didn't even fit your miter gauge slots then I would have definitely called Customer Service and had them replace it. ASAP. That's what they are there for.I do not know, but I can only assume that LV does not manufacture UHMW so cannot be held accountable for its dimensioning. However, they are responsible for providing their customers with the correct item(s) which they have received payment for. Just common sense that they would do so, but if they have no idea that there has been a mistake made on their part, how can you blame them. I would have been on the phone in a heartbeat.Several years ago, I had a problem with their honing guide. This thing would just go all over my water stone like a drunk - I exaggerate a little!. Anyway, I call up to complain and before I finish my speech, the guy says, 'Sir, I'll send out a new one today. Is there anything else I can do for you?' He took ALL the wind out of my sails. Meekly, I just said thanks and that was that. The new one works fine. In all honesty, I believe that I was not clamping the chisel down tight enough and the rubber pads were letting the chisel change position as I pushed down. My fault - I admit. Mea culpa, mea culpa ... I did not put the rubber pads on the new one. Works fine.I am glad to hear that you'll "still buy from them" because I believe that they are a big, big cut above most other companies that we purchase our stuff from. Take care.Regards,
Phillip
"but the experience left a slight sour taste about the company with me." Might have been slight less sour if you'd informed them of the problem and allowed them to right the wrong. Sounds like they got a bad batch, and they aren't part to know it until someone informs them of the problem.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Indeed. Can't lose sight of the fact that we're talking about a $5 jig fixture that many retailers also resell...BTW, those UHMW runners don't like to be ripped with a saw as noted, but I have had luck shaving them down to fit with a block plane -- the ones that bought from LV were a bit too wide for the slots on my TS.Cheers,--Michael
I have to add to this thread. I am a fairly new woodworker and within the past few months purchased some steel drawers that I use under a miter saw stand that I built. I think from the time I ordered to the time I received my order it was two days and I used the default shipping method. I bought some more drawers about a month ago and received them just as quickly. Just a couple of weeks ago I purchased the large front vise which was the best deal that I could find out there. Once again I received it so quickly I couldn't believe it. The quality of the vise appears to be first rate and will let you know more after it is mounted and used for a while. From reading all of the posts here I guess I'm not the only happy customer. It would be nice if our American suppliers could deliver such high quality in service and merchandise.
I'd be interested in more experienced woodworkers' recommendations on American companies which specialize in woodworking tools and accessories.
Regards,
Buzzsaw
http://www.japanwoodworker.com Is a very good supplier based in Alameda California ( the SF bay Area).Japanese specialty tools and a lot of the better stuff that the other guys carry at lower prices generally. But I must say that Lee Valley very good.
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.comhttp://www.highlandhardware.comCharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
I agree! Both very good sources of supply.
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