Now that I have digital cable and a DVR I’ve been watching a lot of Woodworks. David marks seems to stick to the basic machines and tools any of us might have (except for the Multirouter) which is a good thing. Both of the episodes I watched last night bugged me a little bit. The 1st was the cherry sofa table with the bent-lamination stretcher. He said it was Barnsley inspired and it used “classic mortise and loose tenon joinery. I’m no A&C expert, but it looked much more Harvey Ellis/Stickley-esque and the stretcher wasn’t even close to Barnsley’s hay rake style. Not that it’s a bad joint, but loose tenons aren’t very classic in my book. The other episode was on an apothicary case. I can’t imagine taking a diamond plate free-hand to a 3/4″ carbide router bit to get it down to 23/32″ for plywood dados. Norm would have a plywood sized bit or use a stacked dado set. Makes me wonder if Marks is a dadophobe? Marks also seems to be what Norm is to poly to tung oil. He uses it for pretty much everything. Overall I like the show, save the mushy background music when he waxes all poetic about artistic sensibilities.
Sadly I can’t get any Roy Underhill, Scott Phillips, and the only Norm, is TOH Classics. Are these shows still in production? Neither of my PBS channels carries them anymore.
John O’Connell – JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change …
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
Replies
I'm not a big fan of the show for a couple reasons. First, I think he's got LOTS more/better equipment than most people, say on this forum for instance. This makes his work impractical for a lot of people.
Second, I think he's got horrible taste. The few times I watched it, when he was done I'd look at the pice and think "Jeez that's ugly." I think it has a lot to do with his combinations of wood species. I remember an umbrella stand I would have hid in a closet if it was mine.
I watch David Marks when I can, which amounts to an occassional Sunday morning on DIY. He's OK. I'd have to say that I like Norm better. Marks makes everything with curves that require bent laminations. I dont have a band saw so his projects dont work for me.
But with any of the shows, just try and take some basic ideas or techniques from them. I really like the shows that Norm does when he takes the time to explain what he's doing and why he's doing it. I really like the Broken House Crew on Discovery Home Channel because they show the guys making mistakes and how to fix them. If only we all lived in a perfect world like Norm and David Marks where every cut lands right on the mark and the mark is always right (not an inch too short) :)
Elcoholic,
Norm has a new series of projects this year, I see him on PBS Sunday at 3pm and Thrusday at noon on another PBS station. Two weeks ago he did half blind dovetails by hand....and then slid the bottom of the drawer in with the grain going the wrong way..sigh.
Hi John,
I got to admit, I am a DIY junkie.. I like Woodworks, heck where else are you going to see a $3000 Multirouter in action, but really watch mostly for the techniques. I will say Marks does pull out some trophy pieces of wood, like the curly maple piece that must have been 6/4 thick and 14 inches wide, never though maple came that wide! I don't care for his taste in furniture at all, as my taste runs mostly to 18th century American furniture.
Actually I fine the show Handmade Music totally fascinating, easily my favorite show on DIY. Kind of blows my mind, that someone who can build a violin can play the gosh darn thing, wow..
Best wishes
I'm with you BOB. I love DIY and seldom miss Woodworks. I don't care for some of David's work, but he does have some beautiful pieces. I have to admit that I've really learned alot from his show. I wish he would have more new episodes. I'll keep watching.
Just giving credit.
I watch, Norm, Marks, and even Underhill. I relish the skills they have and continue to learn from them all. Norm has the ability to craft items from boats to homes. Marks has the artistic ability in a creative nature that I wished I had. And Underhill shows us the roots of our craft. Sure I don't have all the tools that these professionals have, but I have the will to achieve the best results that I can. I enjoy having my tools in the best working order and enjoy tuning them to perfection.
I will continue to build and watch and learn. Nothing better than making sawdust.
JOE
Joe, the thing that makes Roy Underhill superior to Marks and Abrahm is that Roy occassionally whacks his thumb with a hammer or drives a splinter up his fingernail -- reality TV!
Elcohikic;
Sadly I don't get David Marks but since you say you can not get Scott Phillips I'll have throw in my two cents worth about his show. I have watched him build his new house it is huge and that's OK if you can afford it. MY disappointment is that he has used every plastic/synthetic building product available. Plastic decking, not on my dreams house, plastic fascia boards no way, plaster rocks adhered to large panels I don't think so.
Regards,
Big Bird
Why so down on Marks? I think he is great. I think his design elements, choice of wood and technique is great. It may be more modern than some peoples taste, but most all of his pieces are interesting and functional.
I have found it interesting that he seems to make a template for everything, even if it is for just a single part. I really look forwad to his show.
Michael
I am often surprised how my fellow woodworkers are so critical of others. Particularly those such and Norm and David on TV. Furniture is a matter of taste. Thank God that not everyone has the same tastes. I watch all of the woodworking shows that I can. I can learn something from all of them.
My biggest fear right now is that networks will decide woodworking shows are not drawing the mass audiences they need, and that none will be shown. Norm is 56 years old and working on season 18. How much longer will he be on the air? Who in their right mind would try to fill Norm's shoes?
just my $0.02 worth.
heck, I'd give it shot. As long as the money's right!
I think with all these shows what's important to understand is technique, not design.
I am not at all a fan of Norm's projects, or taste, but sometimes his techniques are noteworthy.I have not seen David Marks but if he's combining many species for effect, I think that's unnecessary. Wood is beautiful on its own without adornment.
but loose tenons aren't very classic in my book..
HAY! I use them all the time.. I get a better fit with a router than I'd get with my mallet and Iron... I loves my routers...
Why would it be bad if it HOLDS?
He uses it for pretty much everything......
You ever see Roy Underhills fingers??
Roy Underhill, Scott Phillips, and the only Norm.. Just a TV show.. I think they are all great.. I think Scott knows more than both.. But just me...
I had to give up cable TV to I could affors' electric' for my old shop...
I just lovet that show.. I think makin' a wood workin' bench out of Oak..
He said.. Something like.. That stain on th oak is MY BLOOD!..
I just love him after that show!
EDIT::: I just lovet that show.. Roy that is..
Edited 7/13/2005 2:16 pm ET by Will George
I am not a huge Marks fan - I don't know about you, but I do not have a 20" bandsaw or jointer. He uses a LOT of very expensive woods - Wish I could afford them. He does a lot of bent lamination where the forms to make the project can cost almost as much or more than the project.
Norm is sometimes fun to watch, but I have not done that in a while.
Roy is featured in the August Popular Woodworking Mag.. ( Can I say that in here?)
Good read .. But I like things simple!
Bobabeui - Thanks for the tip on Handmade Music I'll check it out. Maybe it will fill the void left by Modern Masters' departure.
Joe - Norm, David, Scott and Roy aren't really professional woodworkers any more, they're TV personalities that do wood working. I'm not so sure any of them would cut it making a living directly from their wood working, but I'd put my money on Norm to win in a truely commercial setting. Scott would place and David would show. Sadly Roy would DNF.
MT Burton - Sorry if I came down on Marks too hard - not my intent. As an engineer I'm very literal and analytical (my wife might say anal). I just took exception to what I thought was an inaccurate design reference and a silly approach to modifying high speed precision tooling by hand. I really don't care what these guys build as long as I can learn new techniques. I expect TV and movies to get it right. It's like when they use a silencer on a revolver or the sound track of a V8 burning rubber with the picture of an import on a dirt shoulder.
Woodworksutah - See above to MT Burton. I agree with your fears as it's pretty much already happened here in LA & Orange County. Neither of the PBS affiliates KCET or KOCE are carrying them.
Will - I didn't say loose tenons are a bad joint, just no more "classic" than a biscuit or lock mitre joint.
Rick503 - If Marks is like Norm, he makes three of everything per show so the templates make more sense.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
Sadly Roy would DNF..
I am also a Engineer.. Electrical... Roy reminds me of some of my prototypes when I was making TTL circuits.. CRUDE but worked (sometimes)..
I like ROY BECAUSE he is sort of crude and all banged up.. Sort of reminds me of 'me' in the shop...
I'm with Will on this one, Roy is my hero. IMO he is truly a "woodworker" instead of a machine operator. If I was half as good as he is, I might be able to sell all these damn noisy machines and work the wood myself, as he does, with hand tools.I'm not a Norm-basher; he knows a lot about putting things together, and I learned a lot from his show. But I only watched Scott Phillips a couple of times, he didn't really seem that skilled. Never saw Marks.Roy appeals to me as much for his personality as his skills. He's the guy I'd like to drink beer with."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
I have had the pleasure of working with Roy Underhill on two occasions.
He is quite knowledgeable on hand tools from every era, and has great skill too. If he's not seen on many local PBS venues, it's because he told me that folks need to write or call those stations so he can remain on air. It's up to the local affiliates.
Rick, if you did this for a living and did it in the scale that they do, you'd have ALL of those tools!!! I fix airplanes. I'll bet I have tolls that you don't. He needs a 20 inch bandsaw, so he has it. he needed a big jointer, so he bought it. If you really look hard, you could easily find a jointer that big for less than 1k, probably less than 500 bucks. You just have to be there at the right rime. Same with the bandsaw. I have all the normal tools in my shop. I shopped around to buy them. I have $910.94 in all of my big tools. I bought a planer, bandsaw, and jointer new. I bought a used tablesaw. My entire shop is less than $1500. You can get stuff on the cheap if you look around!
My response was directed at the statement "David marks seems to stick to the basic machines and tools any of us might have". I shop around to try and get the best deals I can - New or Used. Local stores, Craigslist, Classifieds, the yellow classified paper, bulletin boards at wood stores and hardware stores, Online suppliers, eBay and so on. Some area of the country are better for that thn others, sometimes some parts of the state. It sounds like you have a good size shop, and a fair amount of tools and a good job where you make decent money to afford these.
My wife and I do not make a lot of money and we have to carefully weigh each purchase - for her, for me, for my son and for the family. As such I have many of the basic tools but have to make choices due to finances and shop space restrictions ( a 19'x19' garage that has to store excess household items and the water heater, furnance and freezer as well as stairs getting down to it)
As for doing it for a living, I am using my skills in slowly creating a sideline woodworking business that I am hoping to make full time in the next year or so.
Sorry about getting defensive and going off on my hobby horse, but while some here are professional woodworkers, others are not, and some are in the area in between. Some have more money than they know what to do with (I will releive you of that burden if you want) and others live from paycheck to paycheck just getting by and sometimes failing that. Some can't even afford the tools to do the work, but are dreaming of what they would do if they could get the tools and lurk about reading the posts and gleaning some information for THE DAY when they get a tool or two.
Ok, Time to get off the soap box and use it to store the scrap wood for reuse on smaller projects.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Didn't come as as defensive. I agree with you completely. Actually my shop is smaller than yours. I'm in a 12 by 16 garage shop actually 11 ft 5 inches by 15 feet 8 inches, I even keep my daughters bike and toys in there, but push them out to work! I scrounged and scrounged for cheap tools. I used the big box "beat it by ten percent" deal and a military discount to buy when I could. It took me 4 years to get all of this together. The former owners of my house left me an old crapsman 8 inch tablesaw and it all started there!!! The rest is history. I have extremely cheap wood sources and a good nose to sniff them out where ever I am.
Actually, we just moved and my previous shop was about the size yours is. Right now the garage/workshop I am in is full of the stuff that was in the garage, patio and attic of the previous house. I have to sort it all out before I can get back to working in there. With whhat will have to stay, I am not sure I will end up with much more room than I had before.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
This is fun for me to read all of your comments even though I don't have a TV and the little bit that I have seen of these kinds of shows always made me go " No wait don't do that , just before the cut-away".Since I am not up on these shows, I was wondering if they are all targeting the beginning to mid-level woodworker? Are there any show that are for the advanced woodworker that shows the nuts and bolts of the trickiest stuff that boggles the mind, and is there any market for this on TV or DVD?If you wonder where I am coming from, go to the gallery section and check my post "New photos by Mark the Pro". I don't know how much longer I will be able to keep doing my work, And I do like teaching, I just don't feel the world needs another basic woodworking instructor. I would love to be doing work well beyond this if I could find a market for my work. Maybe if it was to share some of the things that I have learned along the way, I would just get to do more of my best work.
I can not begin to tell you how frustrating it is to be at what should be the pinnacle of my career, with more ideas than I can use in a normal year on any given day, and no way of selling those ideas. If you like what you have seen of my work, I hate to tell you what you have missed. This is nothing compared to the ideas that I have to try to forget to keep from going crazy on a daily basis.
Not my style, but holy crap. That is nice work Mark. How long did that take? It's fantastic.
"is there any market for this on TV or DVD?"
Keith,
TV? Unlikely.
DVD? Yes - for a select, descriminating, audience. Since modern technology allows us to produce DVDs, books, et al, "on demand" these days, it seems less and less likely that such works will have to sell in really high volume in order to capture the attention of "publishers." That being said, however, one must still overcome the cost of production and distribution to break even, much less become profitable.
Based upon what I've seen on your website, and here, I'd be a likely purchaser of your books/videos; I cannot estimate how many of our fellow Knotheads would also be likely purchasers, but this forum does seem to constitute the demographic base such product offerings would be most likely to appeal to. Perhaps a converstion with the folks at Taunton is in order to discuss the nuts and bolts of such a wisdom-sharing venture is in order.
Personally, I believe there is a highly descriminating and affluent segment of the population that will eagerly purchase your wooden wonders - if you can reach them. However, and please don't take this wrong, I can't help but wonder of your target audience resides in Arkansas. Surely, marketing-types who are experts in demographic, psychographics, disposable income, etc. have ready access to the best locations for the kind of clientelle most likely to buy from you on an ongoing basis; what you are willing/able to do in order to reach that market is a question only you (and your family) can answer.
As to teaching, my guess is that you would be a good fit for specialty schools like the College of the Redwoods, Anderson Ranch, American Sycamore Retreat, etc. - if not as a full-time faculty member, perhaps as a visiting teacher.
A man with your skill & vision has a place in the world. Don't give up,
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask youself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
I've watched Roy, Scott, David, and St. Norm and like them all. I never copy anything they do but I always pick up something new in their techniques. David Marks has me thinking seriously about vacuum clamping - I think I could find lots of uses for that.
Roy reminds me too much of me. I'm not a hand tool junkie but I'm always pushing stuff out of my way and sometimes just working on the floor. - lol
Oh yeah, does David Marks wear a hairpiece? For some reason, his hair just doesn't look quite real - lol.
Good point Twoodward
Folks,
Rasko here....been reading the strings for months now, decided to finally jump in...greetings....
Perhaps we are forgetting something important here. These are tv shows, and for the most part, as much control as they want and need, networks also have a say. Could it be (and I may be absolutely incorrect on this), that the 'shows' buy some of the tools for the craftsmen doing the work? And some of the decisions that they make could be dictated/altered by the higher ups directing the show?
Just a thought not even worth .02.
"classic mortise and loose tenon joinery" might be more on target than you think. In the exhibition catalog for the Ruhlman exhibit formerly at the Met in NY is a photo of a guy using a slot mortiser and I believe the picture was from the 30's or so. It appears a lot of Ruhlman furniture may have loose tenon joinery.
Haven't seen his show but anyone advocating loose tenon joinery is ok in my book. Been using loose tenos for 20 years and all the shops in my area use loose tenons and slot mortisers. One guy has the multi-router but everyone else has commercial slot mortisers like Bini, Griggio, SCMI.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled