I recently purchased a Signature workbench form Laguna Tools. Once assembled I find that the front vise is not true. There is a difference of 3/32″ between the middle of the part of the vise which moves, to the end of the piece. Therefore when clamping a board in the vise the ends are not in contact with the entire face of the vise. Only the middle is actually clamped. In order to make it work I would have to use shims.
On contacting Laguna and sending them photos I am told that wood flexes and it is not a result of poor milling. I have actually measured the difference in the width. Surely “flexing” will not change the actual width of the laminated wood.
As I recieved an unsatisfactory answer I intend to dismantle the vise and run the piece through my thickness planer to remove 3/32″ from the widest part to match the rest.
As I am new to woodworking can anyone give me advise or feedback if they have encountered a similar problem.
Replies
Steven
It's amazing to me how many times poor customer service from Laguna is brought up on this forum. You'd think they'd try a little harder to please their customers.
Anyway, I think your solution is sound. But, if I were you, I'd do it with a handplane instead of the planer. If you do indeed use your planer, you must first make sure that the outside edge of the block of wood is flat and true. Otherwise, the planer will simply leave you with a skinnier block of wood that is still warped, and out of true.
With a straight edge and a jack plane, you can make quick work of the problem. Simply mark a line that is your "flat reference" around the perimeter, and plane down to it. That way, you can sneak up on it, and check it with your straightedge. 3/16's of an inch wouldn't take more than a minute or two.
Good luck, and let us know if you need more help.
Jeff
PS I think it's obvious, but make sure you remove all metal components before using any tooling. Dumb enough, but I thought I'd mention it.
Don't take that for an answer. Start climbing the CS or (BS) chain till you get what you want. I've gotten those stupid answers before from customer no service and found that if you go high enough and raise enough hell, you will get satisfaction. This is by far not the first time I've read about poor cs from laguna here on this forum. For a costly vendor, pretty poor!
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Yikes! I've been away from this forum for years and this is the first I recall about Laguna being blasted for poor customer service (this badly). Makes me feel even happier about buying the Mini-Max band saw.
If they suck--fire away!!
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, S--T IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
This forum is the reason I have the MM16. It seems that most of the buyers of Laguna products have purchased their products because of their extensive advertising. I can't think of any other company receiving the complaints for poor customer service like Laguna.
I definately got good cs from the folks at MiniMax. I think I got my MM back in 2003. I was unhappy with the table and they shipped me a new one. Only had to talk to two guys and it was done.
I didn't realize Laguna was so terrible! Guess I should spend more time on this forum and less time in Quick Books! LOL"WISH IN ONE HAND, S--T IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Wow. I wish I could say the same. My minimax 16 bandsaw is the poorest machine in my shop. When I bought it new, I had a laundry list of problems and their customer service answer was that their customers were "experts" and "enjoyed fettling their mm equipment to make it work properly". IMO, when you pay thousands you shouldn't have to fix the crudeness left by the manufacturer. But to each his own.
I didn't mean that MM had perfect service, though I have nothing to complain about. They emailed me twice to see how I was getting along and I said just fine. The comment was just to say that I had seen a lot of bad publicity on the Laguna service so that is why I got the MM 16. Do you have the MM 16 or the cheaper sixteen inch saw. I saw them side by side and they looked a world of difference.
Edited 2/1/2008 9:04 pm ET by Tinkerer3
Well, I think I have what's called a MiniMax 16 or MM16. I noticed on the back it says "Centauro", I think the actual manufacturer.
Well, MM16 is definitely amongst their better line. Sorry to hear you have had such bad luck. Maybe the Laguna would have been the better one for you and then maybe not. I haven't used my MM16 enough to tell. Hope I have better luck than you.
Edited 2/4/2008 9:39 pm ET by Tinkerer3
At risk of repeating myself, the biggest manufacturing flaw is that the guidepost is not parallel to the blade, and that's not something I can fix. So if you get your guidewheels set up with the post set an inch above the table, then raise your guidepost to say, 5" above the table, you have to reset your guidewheels.
My other dislikes are the crudity of the fence, the poorly made "insert" around the blade and the just about non-existent dust collection.
Wow, those are substantial complaints. The dust collection thing could be chalked up to poor design but the parallelism sounds like faulty manufacturing or possibly damage after manufacturing. Have you tried getting the company to stand behind it? Maybe I'd gotten something else if I'd known of your experience. I was considering the Minimax, the Laguna and the Bridgewood. As it turned out I was wishing I had waited and gotten the MM20 as Bridgewood had one for only $100 more than what I paid for the MM16.
There were no signs of damage on the machine at the time of delivery. The parallelism is a flaw I discovered much later, when I couldn't figure out what the heck was going wrong. I'm no wrench, and it took me a while (months) to identify the problem. The other problems are just manifestations of a crude design.
Every time I approached the company about the issues, they were extremely enthusiastic and upbeat, and also, completely unhelpful. Their comments were repeatedly something like, "Oh, well, that's expected for this type of machine." Or, and this is the one that pisses me so bad that it's funny, "Our customers are really into woodworking machinery, and enjoy the challenges of tweaking and fettling the machines to get them tuned up to work." Now, here's the wild part. They have a forum. When I asked for help or lodged a complaint there, THEIR CUSTOMERS TOLD ME THE SAME THING!!!
The reason I say these things publicly are so that someone doesn't go to buy one thinking they're getting this "perfect" machine. IMO, it's a quite rough-around-the-edges unit (or was when I purchased mine, about four years ago).
At this point I've taken care of the bridge/cage issue around the blade. As to the guidepost, I just live with it, and reset the wheels when I have to do a lot of sawing in another height zone.
The dust collection; that's the toughie. I run on a central system with a 3 horse motor, and I've plenty of power. But there is always a ton of dust left on top of the table, on the floor around the table, and inside the top and bottom wheel boxes. This is something I don't know how to address.
Later.
"The reason I say these things publicly....."
No need to be shy. That is how we all learn. We can't all try every machine separately to see which one we like best. That is why we have discussions. I have learned just heaps from this forum but hadn't heard the complaints you have before. I can see why they wouldn't/couldn't redesign the dust system for you but that parallelism bit -- seems they should have fixed that. That is equivalent to a broken piece. I would think it would be a major bother to have to reset the wheels each time you raise or lower the guidepost.
major bother to have to reset the wheels .........
I don't. I'm moving that post all the time to make adjustments. Mebbe it wears on the bearings, I don't know, but I'm not about to readjust the guides ten times an hour.
What I do is readjust if I'm going to use it in one location for a lot of repeated cutting, like resawing or something, where the stress/heat might become an issue. Otherwise, I just use the thing as is and take my chances.
Hi,
Sorry you're having such a bummer of a time with your MM16. I have had mine since 2003 (I think) and although I use it only occasionally, I really like it.
I don't have the guide post problem that you have but I think this can be adjusted; I know you shouldn't have to but it might be the only way to rectify the problem. I am away from the shop for a few days but when I get back there I will take a close look at mine to see if I can determine how to adjust this item. I am a "wrench" to some extent so if it's feasible I should be able to figure it out.
The dust collector on mine works as well as I ever expected it to. That being said, I have only experienced DC on this saw and my old POS 18" Taiwan knockoff that I had to "adapt" to DC myself. There is no comparison; the MM is VASTLY superior! I also have a 3 HP Unit with 4" plastic flex pipe. I get some residual dust in the lip on the bottom door but very little any where else. Due to the nature of the machine, I really didn't expect to get much more that 90% or so of the dust and I think that is being achieved. My DC system is adequate as my 15" planer and 8" jointer leave NO dust or chips what-so-ever.
I have to agree with you about the plastic throat insert that goes around the blade. It's pretty crude; like an after thought---we forgot about this--let's knock something out real quick and cheap.
My old saw used to SHAKE when using any but the smallest blade on the lightest work. This one cuts a full 12" on anything I want with minimal effort and can slice 1/16" slabs off any wood I have. I spent about $1800 on the MM and $400 on my old saw. Comparing the two on that basis the MM should be worth about $40000!
I did have an issue with my table when I got the saw. It was low in the middle just in front of the blade to the tune of about 3/32"! I talked to the sales guy, Dean, I think his name was. He referred me to a guy who was supposed to walk me through adjusting this out but when I told him about it, he said he'd ship a new table and he did. I thought it was handled very professionally. I did not experience any of the CRAP that you described! That certainly would be very infuriating!!
I'll get back to you one way or the other on the adjustment and hope you can get better results.
Regards,
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, S--T IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Mack, I appreciate your time and comments.
Yes, I have no complaints about power. Plenty of it. And the wheel adjustments are fast and easy to make parallel. Lots of mass there on the table and so on, too.
But dust collection: whoa you're getting 90%: I don't think I'm getting 25. I have lots of air intake at the gate and I do have that wood cover slid into place (although I ought to check it close and see if it's worn/opened up). Actually I was thinking maybe I'm missing a whole part, like a shroud to surround the lower guide area, which is totally open. It doesn't look like it was designed in a way to capture sawdust.
And if there's a way to parallel the guidepost, I'll be danged if I can find it. If you do in the course of things come upon something, I'd be obliged.
Let me ask you another question. Did you change the fence, or manipulate it? Mine is heavy, which is good, but crude and with high friction to the table, making it difficult to move in small increments. I'm thinking maybe a ball bearing just barely proud of the far end, that would let it slide with a bit more ease. Any suggestions?
I have heard other comments about the fence being--shall we say, somewhat less than sophisticated. LOL
Have you tried just cleaning up the bottom side of the fence. I know mine is a bit rough and that may be the cause of some unnecessary friction. Does yours have the little "magnifier"? It's not exactly a superb optic but I actually like it. Gotta' remember though this is only my second (and last) band saw; the first was a true POS; anchor for a large boat at best!!
I did use a HUGE old DO ALL on all manner of stuff when I did aircraft work in the Navy. That was a very sweet band saw but I haven't the space, power or the dollars to have one for my personal use.
I told the sales person at MM that I wanted a BS that I would never replace and never regret buying and I believe that for the money I got exactly that.
Hope that you can get yours to the point where you feel the same way. I'll be in the shop this weekend and will look into that adjustment.
Regards,
Mack
"WISH IN ONE HAND, S--T IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Thank you again. I'll look at grinding/polishing the bottom of the fence. The magnfier I can't use, at least with my eyes. It's like looking at a black dot. <g>
Hi,
Well I've had a look at the saw and the owner's manual that came with it. My book gives concise instructions for adjusting the guide post and when looking at the saw it becomes very clear how to do it.
Remove the large guide post lock knob. You will be looking at the heads of two bolts between a set of four other adjustment screws with lock nuts. By simply loosening the two center bolts you can adjust the guide post to be parallel with the blade. The adjustment amount will be minute so go easy. Tension up a blade before you proceed and you should be in business.
I was going to scan that page and post it as an attachment but my computer and printer are not speaking to each other for some reason.
Let me know if you are successful.
Regards,
Mack
PS regarding your fence; you might want to file down the small area that contacts the table and glue on a piece of UHMW or some other slick stuff.
"WISH IN ONE HAND, S--T IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Edited 2/11/2008 12:26 am ET by Mackwood
"...my computer and printer are not speaking to each other for some reason."
It's because the computer forgot to get the printer a Valentine's Day present...for the third year in a row.
-Steve
That's funny!!! Actually the two are a fairly "new couple" and I'm hoping they can resolve their differences! LOL
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, S--T IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Morning Mack.
The only book that came with this machine was how to set it upon delivery. Never came with an instruction book. Anyway, after we exchanged, I went back and looked and saw those half dozen nuts'n'bolts units up near the guidepost, and I realized I was wrong, that probably there was some way to adjust the thing.
I haven't tried yet. I've contacted minimax to see if they will send or sell me the so called instructional that I probably was supposed to get in the first place.
I've heard so many positive things about mm, I'm wondering if I just got a lemon or caught them at a bad time. I do know that right after I purchased, they made a major change in the machine and the location of manufacturing.
Anyway, Mack, thanks. I'll try to figure out how this thing adjusts. Later.
I got two books with mine. One is basically a parts breakdown and the other is operation and adjustment. If you have a hard time getting the book, let me know. Worst case I can copy the whole thing and snail-mail it to you.
I looked at my saw and it was made in early 2004 so that's the year I got it. I'm pretty sure we have the same unit.
Best of luck with yours!!
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, S--T IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Mack, I managed to find the manual on the web. The directions are about worthless as to adjusting the guide. Oh sure, they try and explain it, but it's basically jibberish. I'll just start looseing stuff and play around. I should be able to figure it out.
Thanks again.
Just reread your post. Your dust collection problem seems wierd to me. Have you checked to see that the little wood block that slips in over the blade is there? Have you tried disconnecting your hose at the machine and see if the suction you have there is the same as elsewhere in your system. There may be a blockage. The only time I get the dust you describe is when I forget to open the blast gate!
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, S--T IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Niether one fills up first since they are one and the same thing. I thought everyone knew this.
I wouldn't really disagree with you but one is abstract and one is more "concrete" (depending on where you've been eating).
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, S--T IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
LOL
You need to follow the advise given about staying after Laguna.
They need to make things right with you and correct the problem.
If you make the changes on your own, you are then stuck with it.
This continued bad follow up from Laguna makes one think twice about buying some of their other products.
Thanks and take care
well, I agree with both answers. Steve's solution is to be followed IF you must make corrections, but you should make Laguna correct the mistake. I've been admiring the 14" bandsaw for a while now. Should I nix it based on this poor track record of customer service?
Adam
It is true that wood flexes. But beech is not going to flex 3/32" along the length of the face of a vise if it was actually properly milled flat.
....can anyone give me advise or feedback if they have encountered a similar problem.
...Just beware of Laguna's customer service track record.
Hind sight here but................
Maybe you should have goe to Lie-Neilsen
Cherry John
Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
Laguna also got a poor showing in a FWW workbench review a bit back. I've heard nothing but bad comments. Think I'll stay away.
Brian
Steven,
Hi and welcome to Knots.
Please note that these threads tend to develope a life/theme of their own. They get "hijacked".
Now, to your problem. Do what others have told you about staying on Laguna. So that you are aware of what you are in for just do a general search of topics involving Laguna over the last two years. If I recall, there was quite a 'to do' here about a year ago. I do not have any of their tools because of the heads up I got from lurking here, so I cannot advise you with first hand experience.
Unfortunately, after reading these forums, I would say that Laguna Customer Service seems to be more of an oxymoron than anything else.
You have to judge them by your own experience.
edit to add: To the left of this paragraph your will see the title KNOTS. Under that there is a section titles Advanced Search. Clickon that and follow directions.
...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home....aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
Edited 2/7/2008 2:20 am by oldbeachbum
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