I’m building a bench and I want to add an apron. What are the pros and cons of having the apron extend below the bottom of the bench top versus having it flush with the bottom? I’ve seen it done both ways.
What’s the best way to attach an apron? I was thinking of maybe a spline.
Replies
jonnieboy,
I have no direct experience with a long apron, however, the two pros I remember from articles have always intrigued me. The first pro is that a longer apron attached to the legs inhibits racking of the bench. The second pro is that the greater the contact area between your stock and bench apron (when your edge jointing for instance)the less holding power necessary with the clamp/vise. Intuitively, I think both those pros make sense.
Unfortunately, the cons may also have some merit. My bench is fairly short and between vises, drawers, etc. finding space under the bench top for clamping is a problem. A long apron would mean larger clamps and perhaps a little less flexibility.
The second con is not so much a con as a question, that is: if longer aprons were beneficial, wouldn't more people have benches with longer aprons? Roy Underhill has video clips of his shows on-line and one of those shows discusses the German workbench evolution in this country. One model had larger aprons with dog holes...the narrator points out good idea, not used very much. Good luck
Thanks, BG.
Do you think attaching clamping pads behind the apron are a good idea? That way I get both worlds -- clamping ability, and surface area across the front of the apron.
jonnieboy,I don't know what a clamping pad is, sorry, I really can't help you there.I am finding however, as I confront new issues, the workbench more often than not figures into the solution. With a wide apron I'm not sure if the apron would facilitate or complicate those solutions.
Thanks for your input, BG. What I'm calling a clamping pad someone else here explained better than I. The back of the apron that sits below the lower edge of the benchtop is built up with wood in order to be able to attach an F-style clamp, with a 3" depth.
BG,
When you say long apron does that mean wide, or wider than the thickness of the benchtop? Another pro for a wide apron is that it serve as the rear face for a front vise.
A wide apron can make it a but awkward when one wants cabinets under the benchtop too. Also dust/chips that fall through dogholes collect between the benchtop and cabinet top. Mebbe a dogless bench might solve this issue?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 4/12/2009 9:03 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Kidderville,My guess is I mean a wider apron. The attached picture is an example of a wider apron. As you know, the closer the apron is double or more the dimensions of the leg, the more stable the base. Moat benches accomplish the stability ratio by adding a stretcher at the bottom. One advantage I see in the attached picture is, because the apron attaches to the legs, there are greater supporting forces to eliminate racking.http://www.sawdustmaking.com/JoinersBench/joinersbench.html
BG,
One thing I'm not understanding is the issue of clamping on a bench with an apron.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,I also have that failure.BG- I was thinking before of a wide enough base to support longer clamps but to clamp from one apron across to the opposite leaves me wondering as to what is being clamped to what. Perhaps we need some clarification as to the type of work that is to be produced. It is your "F" clamp need that gives me pause.I think many here would advise that design additions to a bench for a singular purpose is something that may come back to haunt you later.Is it that you want to disguise the edging of the bench or is it to use dogs/holdfasts supported by drilled apron?Boiler
Kidder,"One thing I'm not understanding is the issue of clamping on a bench with an apron"This is not really a big thing but let me explain it a bit more. I use a bench on bench (mini-bench) when cutting dovetails and working on small stock and (sometimes) routing mortises. The mini-bench needs to be clamped to the workbench for stability. I've tried to do this with holdfasts and dogs but a wood clamp is probably best with an F-clamp a close second. Being cheap, I don't want to buy clamps specifically for holding things to my workbench because I have an extra wide apron...so I'm saying that needs to be taken into consideration...if your cheap...which I am. Also, I don't like to spend money, did I mention I was cheap?I also use wood clamps to hold objects at weird angles on my workbench. An overly large apron could be an issue there also.
I don't want to buy clamps specifically for holding things to my workbench because I have an extra wide apron...so I'm saying that needs to be taken into consideration...if your cheap...which I am. Also, I don't like to spend money, did I mention I was cheap?
Late reply BUT.. "a bench on bench (mini-bench)" I have one.. I think the two bolts and wing nuts cost me an outrageous $3.00.. OK, so I had to drill two holes in my bench. AND after buying them I remember I had a drawer full of stuff I could have used for free!
BG knows what I'm talking about, but the longer/wider/thicker/top/ bottom terminology is confusing. I think I know how to say this.
Pretend there is no apron on my workbench (which there isn't). I can clamp a mini-bench, or anything else I want to clamp, using an F-style clamp. The "button" of that clamp, the pressure point, can three inches under the bench top if I need it to be.
If I have an apron on the front that is less than 3 inches, which is less deep than the throat of the clamp, and I pushed the clamp under the bench 3 inchess, then only the section of the clamp between the bar and the button, the throat of the clamp, would be hooked, anf that would be hooked upon the apron itself. The apron would be dented and unnecessarily torqued upon each time I found that I had to clamp something deeper, which is to say, with the button closer to the center of the workbench by an inch or two.
Whew. I hope I made this more clear, rather than more confusing. By the way, Chris Schwarz's workbench book is on the way even now. I got my bookmark out. I'm ready.
----
Worth a read if you haven't seen this book
http://astore.amazon.com/gp/detail.html?tag=thewoodwhispe-20&linkCode=sb1&camp=212353&creative=380565&asin=1558708405
He addresses wide apron benches in depth.
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 4/12/2009 1:28 pm by roc
I will definitely check out this book. Thanks for the suggestion.
Alright, that's it. I've read and heard about how good this book is from a few different sources. I'm going to get it pronto.
Jonnie,
Having an apron that is flush with the bottom of the bench isn't really an apron - it's more like edge-banding. The big advantages of having a wider apron that extends below the bottom of the bench top is that it can add a lot of stiffness and also provides more support when clamping anything that protrudes below the bench top. Having a leg flush with the edge of the bench next to the vise serves the same purpose when clamping stock vertically. The wide apron make the bench look more massive as well.
However, the wide apron can make clamping difficult, but building up the thickness behind the apron will effective negate this issue. A spline would help align the apron flush to the bench top when gluing up, but isn't necessary for strength.
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
(soon to be www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
That's a good way to distinguish the two - banding versus apron. Thanks.
Chris Schwarz is a workbench guru. He has built many benches and does a superb job in his book, Workbenches, of explaining how benches are designed. For 25 years, I worked on a Tage Frid style bench with an apron and a shoulder vise. The apron was always a pain when I needed to add an F-style clamp to secure work. I built the Hotzapffel style bench earlier this year mentioned in Chris' book. It has a 3"x24"x96" top without an apron, the front edge of the top is coplanar with the base legs, a 24" wide Lee Valley double screw vise and a 7" quick release end vise. It is a dream to use.
I also suggest you go to the Woodworking Magazine site, Chris Schwarz is editor, and read the many Weblog posts under the workbench topic. It has a wealth of information.
Tom7, got any pictures of that bench? Huh? Huh?
Pictures are attached. It is very stable, made of hard maple, weighs close to 400 pounds.
Edited 4/12/2009 5:14 pm ET by Tom7
Oh my. That is one beautiful bench. You're right, it's massive. I can see how it's a pleasure to use Thanks for sharing.
JB,
Why are you thinking of adding an apron?
You have your dog horse and additional vertical hold down. You have all you need for vertical clamping and it would only detract from the horizontal clamping clearances. i.e. a common 24 or less common 36 inch clamps. It might make the bench more impressive but I fail to see the usefulness unless your thinking is to carry it through the vise. Remember that front aprons (as with handle side vise covers) are replaced as abused so you would have to replace the apron after a long period of rough work.. Just thoughts
Like the bench.
Boiler
Boiler, those aren't my pictures. That's not my bench. I'm floundering here with the mechanics of this forum, and can't find the guy's name who posted those. That's a beautiful bench.
My bench top is three layers -- ply, MDF, and oak laminate. About 3" thick. For that reason alone I want to add an apron. But then there's the clamping issue.
What I've come up with is to add an apron and back it with enough board to be able to use F-style clamps.
Sorry for the confusion about the pictures.
All this talk of aprons on a workbench is creating visions of frilly rick-rack fabric attached with thumbtacks in my (admittedly deviant) brain - what California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger would call a "girly-bench". ;)
While I can see the advantage of having a wide vertical surface created by a wide apron for some operations, that also creates clamping issues, as others have noted. As a compromise, what about a partial apron?
What would a partial apron look like?
Girlie bench, eh? Why, I oughtta...
What I'm calling a partial apron would extend only part way down the length of the bench, perhaps with a rounded corner, so that the edge of the bench top would be exposed for the balance of the length of the bench.The girlie aspect of the other kind of apron might depend on the fabric chosen - denim or leather as opposed to a flower pattern, for example. Just don't say you're going to b*tch-slap me, or I'll cry. ;-)
I'm confident in the manliness of my bench. Blue vise, blue vise! Not pink!
Thanks for the idea, Ralph
Ralph,
What I'm calling a partial apron would extend only part way down the length of the bench
I'm still not understanding the issue(s)/problem(s) with clamping on a bench with an apron - I don't see how an apron negatively effects clamping. A partial apron in my opinion would further exasperate clamping issues with respect to clamping a long board so as to work on its edge for example.
Please don't get me wrong as I'm not trying to be argumentative. I have a 6 1/2" wide apron on mine and the only negative I've encountered is cabinets underneath. And that mainly in that it cuts down on the available height for same.
To me an apron affords more advantage(s) than one without any apron, especially when a front vise is incorporated into a bench. Maybe my experience might be inflluenced by the fact that I also have an end vise (Veritas Twin Screw)?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
P.S. I did find a reference to a short apron on the WEB but it seems to imply that a diva is necessary. Also in the absence of frick-frack perhaps one could apply a scallpoed edge? Maybe Lataxe can offer some words of wisdom in this reguard...............
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 4/14/2009 2:46 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob, as my nymphomaniac female cousin used to say, it's all relative. ;-)A long, wide apron allows one to clamp a long board, let's say a six footer, in a vertical position along/against the apron. Some might liken this to the long rubber apron worn by an old, frumpy amazon as she takes you into the autopsy room for a "Y" incision. Others, however, might prefer a short apron, similar to that worn by the stereotypical French upstairs maid. If, on the other hand, one is trying to clamp the 3/4" thick base of a jig or fixture to the top of a 2" thick bench with a 4" C-clamp, that 6 1/2" apron presents certain problems. Although an 8" C-clamp might solve the problem, the pressure point is near the front of the bench, depending on the thickness of the apron. No apron (or one of those sexy French short ones) allows the pressure point to be as far inward as the throat of the clamp will allow. I have a few Washington deep-throat C-clamps that are handy for this purpose. Bench dogs used on conjunction with a vise can hold a board on the benchtop, but the lines of grip are parallel to the bench top. Thus, it's easy to pull a taller jig or fixture from their grip with forces that are well above the bench.All of this is theoretical, however, as I don't actually clamp anything to my apron. I use the Lee Valley magnetic tool belt, as discussed in a thread on April 1. ;-)
Ralph,
Thanks, that makes sense and might explain the issue of clamping a mini bench on top depending on its construction, i.e. if it had flat feet. For those situations I guess the front vise might present a possible solution but may require slight modification.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Chris goes into the pros and cons of an apron or not. The Photo's Tom7 posted show the latter of 2 benches he constructed in the last few chapters of the book including plans and detailed wording and photo's to "roll your own". The First bench in the book that is constructed it has the aforementioned Aprons. I am letting my wood acclimate and will build one such at Tom7 did.Capt. Rich Clark
--DUCT Tape is the "force"... It has a Light side and a Dark side and it binds the universe together
Rich,
That'll be fun to see when I get the book how you're constructing your bench. Be sure to send photos, I'd love to see them. Or let me know and I'll get you my e-mail address.
I just now finished putting the second of two wash coats of shellac on the frame of my new bench. Tomorrow I'll stain. Oh my, it's hard to believe, but this thing could actually come together. It's been a real journey.
Thanks for the post Rich, and keep in touch.
ON 13 April ya post ya are awaiting the post man to deliver ya boot and and brow beat me'Rich,That'll be fun to see when I get the book how you're constructing your bench. Be sure to send photos, I'd love to see them. Or let me know and I'll get you my e-mail address.I just now finished putting the second of two wash coats of shellac on the frame of my new bench. Tomorrow I'll stain. Oh my, it's hard to believe, but this thing could actually come together. It's been a real journey. Why even ask? or bother to? And why two coats of Shellac? you miss something? and Why Stain over a sealed coat? Why not paint it blue?I read the thread knowing I was going to build the Bench I was saving up for the vices and the lumber and its cut and bought.. I was reading and just noticing, you were going to read the book I have read over and over and was just saying the bench you wanted was there in the book in great detail... and Aprons!Sorry If I wasted your week after you seemed to be asking for help.. I feel the French bench with a dead man far surpasses the utility of the apron bench and I imagine when you read the book you will to find that obvious. but from your reply I imagine you will be making it after you figure that out and read the book you should have bought before your made your dream bench.. the introduction will warm your heart... this is his 5th bench and he loves it..
Capt. Rich Clark
They tell me buy the book, I buy the book. What do I know?
Before I started this bench I read Sam Allen's Making Workbenches. I'm looking forward to Scwarz's book arriving.
I prefer no apron as I want a solid 3" top with "one" flat bottom to clamp to. If I did edge joint with a hand plane and needed extra support on the side.. I would simply drill some dog holes on one side of the top.. and temporarily add an apron with corresponding glued in dowels to the side when edge clamping. Then remove it and stand the apron in a corner. I find wide aprons harder to clamp to because of the width.
I over-lap my bench-top from the legs. I won't toe room and having legs flush doesn't do that for me on the corners. Each his own. As far as aprons adding stability.. if the base is built correctly the bench wil not rack. My top is not attached to the base. It sits on the four corners of the legs which have a glued on bullet headed dowel. The bottom of the top has a hole drilled to corresspond to the dowel exposed in top of leg. So those dowels keep it from shifting and gravity holds it down.
I also add a whale-back which is a 4 x 3 runner from one end stretcher to the other locked in with a bridal joint. This is the final step I use to lock all through tenons and absolutely counter any way it could rack.
As far as adding a look of mass.. I see no purpose as I build a bench to work on and could care less what it looks like. The base is the key to not racking... not the top with or without aprons. And.. you don't have to build with hard-woods to have a suitable bench. I have built 24 over the last 38 years and the last five have Doug Fir bases with SYP tops. The last top cost me $28 to build from SYP.
Build your bench to meet your needs.. your working height and your needs. Good luck....
Sarge..
Ohh, nice posting. Many comments.
First, the clamping here is exactly what I'm talking about. The way you have your benchtop you can use as shallow or deep-throated clamp as you want to. This was my hunch; that it had to be like this, or something like this or it wouldn't be effective at all.
A removable apron is a great idea. Excellent. I'll think long and hard about that.
The whaleback design looks like it works well because it keeps so much of the structure out of the way. You have the benchtop and that's it. And the added solidity of the spine running the length of the middle of the top, for hammering things together (I mean coaxing), whatever.
What's SYP? How much do you guess this bench to weigh? What are the dimensions?
Jonnie Boy, "Jonnie First Bench"
SYP is southern yellow pine as Chris Schwartz recommends in his book that many taut as a Holy Book. The fact is... SYP and the majority of ideas written in books now on the market about work-benches have been around for a much longer than the author's have been living. Keep in mind WW'er's have been using work-benches for 5000 years or more and there are very few new ideas about how to build a sturdy bench that haven't been already used.
SYP is a softwood but.. it's really not soft. Once it dries thoroughly it is very hard. I could show you studs in old southern houses that you would have difficulty driving a nail in. It's heavy and if you chose straight stock and let it dry properly.. it's stable.
Many would dispute that but.. I personally think the one's that do are using improperly dried SYP that is reeking wet from improper kiln drying as you see in the Box stores. And there working with it wet which is not good to do. Ripping SYP wet can release much tension.. gum up a blade with resin and the stock will warp coming off the board as most is flat sawn.
But.. by picking and choosing straight flat sawn off a shelf with the pith near the center.. finishing the drying process.. you can use 1x 10's and end up with QS stock. You simply rip off the outer.. rounded over edge on both sides.. then take 3" off with a rip on each side. You throw away the center heart pith as that is very un-stable and the reason it will cup. It leaves you with a grain pattern as in Quarter-sawn which looks like this: ///// as opposed to this" //////O/////// with one side of diagonals facing the opposite way as there is no symbol key on my computer to change the direction of the slash.
I am pretty hard on a bench-top. I don't baby them and I won't think twice about driving a batten in one to use as a stop. I stain on them.. I cut some joints on them and I might re-build an auto engine on one. It's made to work and my intention is to get my $75 worth of investment out of it. The base never needs to be re-built but... the top can be replaced with SYP for around $30 which I can do in 2 days after the stock is acclimated.
Mine is 24' x 72" which fits my shop. But... by opening the Veritas twin screw the top of the outer jaw can extend the working surface to 84" when needed. Mine is 35 1/2' high as that is comfortable for me and... it serves as an extension for my TS whose top is also 36 1/4" tall. I made an MDF estension to fit in my end twin screw and by using it in the WB I rip stock up to 14' as I occasionally hire out to prep air dried stock for locals. My assembly table is the same height so I can support up to 16' using my work-bench.. assembly table top and TS top in unison. It becomes a multi-purpose tool.
Good luck in deciding what "you" need in a a bench...
Sarge..
Edited 4/20/2009 10:11 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Edited 4/20/2009 10:14 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Thanks so much, Sarge. I got a few good ideas for an outfeed table from the pictures.
My bench will be 24 x 60. It's my first one, so perhaps it's too small, but my shop is fairly small. I'll make corrections as I go.
By the way, in one of these picture it looks like your hand was cut off and sucked up into the dust chute. Can you see the fingers dangling out? Ouch, Sarge!
I do believe that might be the front tip of the crown gaurd attached to the top of the splitter, Jonnie. As far as I know I still have two hands. My wife keeps me hand-cuffed and the shackle on both sides appear to be occupied so..... ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Good luck...
Sarge..
You must be hard on benches!
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