Replies

1. 
   davamoore | Jan 06, 2003 09:31pm | #1

   Mitch, on pp. 27-29 of "The Workshop Book" by Scott Landis (1998, Taunton Press), there are descriptions and photos of a pantry workshop and a mockup of a closet workshop, both designed for apartment dwellers.  Although the plans aren't detailed (e.g., measurements, joinery, etc.), the descriptive text is good and should give you some ideas for tool storage, a small workbench, etc.

   David

   Look, I made a hat -- Where there never was a hat!

2. 
   b1gcountry | Jan 06, 2003 09:34pm | #2

   I'm in a similar situation in St Louis, but I have devoted my entire dining room to woodworking (now, anyway). Unfortunately, there is no good way to make a fold away bench that will take the stress of planing and such. I'm not saying you can't have a fold away workbench, only that you will probably find it aggravating. That said, try a workmate-small bench ~$40 that you can get at the local box store. As for installing the plane blade, have you ever tried a jointer plane?

   Tom

1. 
   MitchRoberson | Jan 07, 2003 02:00am | #3

   Thanks Tom and David, for your responses.  I checked out "The Workshop Book" and saw the mock-up of the closet workshop.  That's the kind of thing I'm thinking about but I don't even have that much space.  I'm thinking about something even smaller.  I'm going to keep reading and integrate good ideas from all over the place. 

   Regarding the jointer plane, I haven't tried one.  But on some website of a luthier that I saw several years ago, there was a workbench with basically a jointer plane mounted upside down.  Used with a fence, it made quite a handy jointer.  

   Thanks again for your responses!

   Regards,

   Mitch Roberson 

1. 
   dfg | Jan 07, 2003 11:51pm | #4

   I noticed this bench at the Garrett Wade site the other day. 

   http://www.garrettwade.com/jump.jsp?lGen=detail&itemID=105754&itemType=PRODUCT&iMainCat=10098&iSubCat=10099&iProductID=105754

   Dave

1. 
   MitchRoberson | Jan 08, 2003 12:01am | #5

   Dave, Incredible!  That's exactly the kind of thing I was thinking of.  I'm not sure if I'd buy it or build my own but I'll certainly keep it in mind as I decide what to do.  I really appreciate your post.  Thank you!

   Regards,

   Mitch Roberson

1. 
   ian | Jan 08, 2003 02:48pm | #6

   Mitch

   I've never used bench similar to the Garratt Wade design, but I understand that the key to its effectiveness is how well it withstands racking - horizontal distortion as you plane on the bench.  If you decide to build your own bench I suggest you incorporate a drop in brace to keep the support legs at right angles to the top. 

2. 
   BG | Jan 08, 2003 03:00pm | #7

   Mitch,

   Ditto Ian's comments.  Also, if I were going to build such a bench, I'd put the whole thing on a piece of plywood, attach it to the uprights and maybe a piano hinge to drop down a portion that would provide a space for me to  stand on and secure the front legs to for when I was planing.  The idea here is to try and add weight to the bench (your own) for stability. The piano hinge would allow me to fold up the plywood for storage of the unit.  just a thought...

   Edited 1/8/2003 7:02:43 AM ET by BG

3. 
   MitchRoberson | Jan 08, 2003 06:27pm | #8

   Thanks, Ian and BG.  I was thinking about stability and your comments are very helpful.  I was thinking of something sloppy like putting a peg on each leg that could hold a weight from a weightlifting set.  but the idea of having a plywood "floor" to stand on sounds much better.  and having brackets on the legs to keep them at right angles is also helpful.

   another huge issue in this little enterprise is working without power tools.  i've got noise and dust to consider (being in a one-bedroom apartment in manhattan) but also I'm the first to admit that table saws scare the hell out of me.  I have used them and will use them in the future when and if I move to a place conducive to having a real shop, but for now I'm not too upset about not using one.

   Anyway, I'm considering how to do the basic functions of squaring up lumber, ripping and cross-cutting.  This is an interesting challenge.  I want to come up with efficient, accurate ways to do these functions with as few tools as possible, using as little space as possible.  I'm thinking of buying an old jointer and taking off the table and making sort of a "manual" jointer by inserting a plane blade where the motorized blade would have been.  Or, i'm thinking of asking a welder to make the two table surfaces for me and coming up with a simple way to adjust the height.  I understand the appeal of clamping a board to a bench and using a jointer plane.  But it just seems to make more sense to have a way to quickly run a piece of stock against a fence and square it up pass by pass.  Any thoughts?

   Thanks again for your responses! 

4. 
   BG | Jan 08, 2003 09:40pm | #9

   Mitch,

   To be honest, I'm having a tough time picturing you dragging up rough boards into your apt. in Manhattan...certainly anything longer than 6' has got to be impossible?

   I don't have a power jointer. I use my #7 stanley, #5 stanley and a belt sander and they work quite well.  Eventually, I want to get a #3 scrub plane too.  You can also accomplish a lot with a router...but the noise...

   I was really surprised at how hard rip cutting is...very slow...good saws for our situation are a must.  These hand tools, if you go top shelf, are just as expensive as the power tools.  There are several good books which you may want to cnsider also.   

5. 
   MitchRoberson | Jan 08, 2003 10:29pm | #10

   BG,

   Thanks again for your responses.  Excellent information to have!  I'm actually famous, or notorious, for carrying 10-foot boards on subways and buses.  You just have to be careful not to change direction and smack anyone in the head!

   I think the only power tool I can get away with using is a drill.  So belt sanders and routers are out of the question.  I've seen lots of books about hand tools themselves but not devoted entirely to the few basic functions that really make up all of woodworking.  I'd appreciate any suggestions.  There's a FW article from many years ago on someone who exclusively uses hand tools.  I'll try to find it.  I'm intimidated by the idea of having to take a piece of rough, warped and/or cupped lumber and make it so flat you can feel the suction of the vacuum you make when you put the wood on a smooth surface.  I like being a perfectionist. 

   But without a table saw, how do you rip a 5-foot board with a handsaw and expect it to be straight enough?  Do you just try to get as close as you can and use planes to clean it up? 

   Thanks for the discussion,

   Mitch 

6. 
   JamesC67 | Jan 08, 2003 10:57pm | #11

   Mitch,

   To rip a peice of material youd have to do it like they did before tablesaws use a hand rip saw it looks alot like a cross cut saw but the teeth are set differant.

   James

7. 
   BG | Jan 09, 2003 12:04am | #12

   Mitch,

   I'm not saying I could do it, but your right on the riping of the 5 ft board....along with practice, practice, etc.   I have read several articles about using hand tools only and they are quite inspiring. (google: Bob's Bench)

   When you think about it, the actual 5' riping part of a project is not a very big part of the job...unless your making a fense...lol. 

8. 
   ian | Jan 09, 2003 05:18pm | #16

   Mitch, here are some ideas.

   Forget about a powered jointer.  Buy yourself a good jointer plane, a No 7 or No 8.  It's a whole thread in itself whether you buy a wooden body one, a Lie Nielsen, a new Stanley or Record, an old Stanley, or what ever else.  Check out the Knot threads under Tools for Woodworking, the Lee Valley and Garratt Wade catalogues and do some Google searching for your options.  If I attempt to steer you too much one way or the other I'll draw the "plane raiths" down on my head.  A big advantage of a hand plane (appart from no noise) will be almost no mess - the shavings you'll produce by hand are very easy to clean up.  An option to consider while you build your skill (or to improve your rate of production) is a long shooting board - look at this site to get the idea http://www.michealconnorwoodwork.com.au/workbenches.html

   For cross cutting you could buy a chop saw or saw by hand.  Your neighbours will probably accept the short term noise generated by a chop saw, but my preference would be a hand back saw.  Japanese saws are a joy to use, whilst western style saws are stiffer.  Either style are quite, the dust stays at the cut line rather than being thrown all over the appartment, and the cut can be shaved using a shooting board and block plane.  You can also purchase a number of devices that will guide the saw for accurate angled cross cuts - one model will even guide a Japanese saw for a compound cut. 

   For ripping my suggestion would be a jig saw.  I know this is left field, but the more powerful Bosch jig saws can cut material up to 120mm thick.  My Bosch is much quiter than my Makita LS 1013, the speed is variable, the blade can be readily changed to one suiting the material being cut, but, more importantly, from the perspective of a very small workshop the saw can be mounted under a sub-table and thus converted to stationary use.  With a shop made fence, accurate ripping is possible and the saw can also cut curves almost as well as a band saw.  Other top end jig saws can also be used this way - and in the case of a Festo saw as well as table mounting, you can use their guide rail system to get long straight cuts. 

   Lastly, buy yourself a good shop vac.  Again the machine to get is a thread in itself.  Personally I have a Festo and would buy another in a heart beat if the need arose.  The hose attaches to any tool with a suitable fitting (including some jig saws), and the vac starts and stops in conjunction with the tool - this is especially important with sanders.  If used mine to sand back the kitchen wall after it was filled and the vac collected so much of the dust that the work surfaces didn't need wiping. 

   Most of all, ENJOY

9. 
   BG | Jan 09, 2003 05:47pm | #17

   ian,

   That jig saw idea is fascinating..altough maybe a tiny bit loud for an apt...just maybe.  Let me pick your brain on a couple of other ideas in the same left field.  I recently sliced up some 5/4 pine into 1/2x8" boards for draws.  The table saw could not do hte whole job s I used my sawsall with a 12 blade to complete the job.  How bout mounting a sawsall?  any thoughts?  Also, a scroll saw..do you think a fense would give the scroll saw the capability of ripping wood effectively?  I have never used one...thanks

10. 
    ian | Jan 10, 2003 10:27am | #21

    That jig saw idea is fascinating..altough maybe a tiny bit loud for an apt...I can only go on my own experience.  My jig saw is significantly less noisy than my (Makita) mitre saw or Dad's table saw, so much so that I never think ear protectors are necessary.  With the table saw or mitre saw the protectors go on almost every time I use them.  Also when I'm working on the house I don't mind using the jig saw whilst the kids are asleep, but I wouldn't think of firing the mitre saw up.  On this basis I'd be prepared to try the jig saw in an appartment. 

    As for setting a sawsall up as a substitute table saw - if a sawsall is what I think it is, I'd think not.  For work inside an appartment my first consideration in selecting a power saw would be noise, second dust generation and throw, third blade rigidity (ie the blade's ability to remain at right angles to the table or base plate).  Then I'd look at how to mount the saw and how to attach a suitable fence. 

    do you think a fense would give the scroll saw the capability of ripping wood effectively?from using my Dad's scroll saw, scroll saw blades are too fragile and cut too slowly to be much use cutting timber.  As I understand it, scroll saws are intended to cut very thin stock, not the thicknesses typically used for furniture making. 

    All this said, there are some interesting hand and power tools out there that may be useful in an appartment shop, where compactness, noise, ability to pack into a cupboard when people come to visit (or the wife/partner says "pack away now"), may more than outway the short comings and disadvantages obvious to those with a full time shop.   For example, I have to carry my mitre saw outside to use it at home (too much mess inside) for this reason the Bosch power hand saw and mitre table look an attractive alternative - though I haven't seen one in use.

11. 
    MitchRoberson | Jan 09, 2003 08:30pm | #18

    Ian,

    Wow, that was an amazing post!  Thanks for all the great information.  The jig saw concept for ripping is a great idea though i'm not sure I could get away with the noise of the jig saw.  This is an interesting concept: using a jig saw involves the woodworker feeding the stock against the fence while the jig saw makes the cut.  I'm wondering how this could be accomplished with a hand saw.  I guess I would just have to clamp the stock to the bench, perhaps make a little fence to guide my cutting and just make the cut, then clean it up with a plane.

    The shooting board concept is also very helpful.  But I can't quite picture how it works.  is the plane stationary so that the shooting board moves the wood against it or is the shooting board stationary so the plane can be moved against the wood?

    Thanks again for your great information!

    Mitch

12. 
    BG | Jan 09, 2003 10:13pm | #19

    Mitch,

    At many hardware stores you can purchase U channel which is extruded aluminum and very straight.  That can be clamped onto any board and used as a straight edge for cutting...its also very light.  Planing, you use your workbench....  There is also a nice little jig you can make for cross cutting wood on top of your workbench:  a board with two pieces of stock attached to it on either side...one at top on one side...one at bottom on other side.  The board is placed on the edge of the workbench with the underside catching on the table top.  Put your work piece (stock) against the stock on the top of the board and saw at the edge. 

    Anyhow, as you might imagine, using hand tools has been around longer than power tools and there is a whole wealth of ideas out there to be explored...  

13. 
    ian | Jan 10, 2003 10:47am | #22

    Mitch

    I've got a stack of FWW back issues from Santa.  The attached photo is from the May/June 97 issue of Fine Woodworking and shows one way to edge joint by hand.

    To add to Eddie's post, I'd suggest a Lie Nielsen No6, primarily so you know what a well tunned plane cuts like and hence have a target to fettle an old Stanley to.

    Ian

    
14. 
    MitchRoberson | Jan 10, 2003 06:02pm | #23

    ian,

    the picture is very helpful in understanding the shooting board concept.  thanks for that.  and this whole discussion has been invaluable.

    the way my mind works, i immediately wonder if (and if not, why not) someone has designed a handplane with the blade and sole at a 90 degree angle, with the handles upright and with a flat sole that would, in the procedure in the picture, run along the bench.  it looks like a very effective way to do edge jointing but the it doesn't look terribly ergonomic.

    just some thoughts.  thanks again for your insights.

    mitch

15. 
    BenM | Jan 10, 2003 09:21pm | #24

    Such a plane was invented.  It's the #51 Chute Board Plane.  And #52 is the Chute Board that goes with it.

16. 
    eddiefromAustralia | Jan 10, 2003 01:13am | #20

    Mitch,

    I support Ian's ideas and comments, as well as those of 'kiwimac'.  I don't know about the ability of the walls in your apartment to stop noise from going next door and how tolerant your neighbours are - my minor concern about the vacuum and the jigsaw, but otherwise I agree.  Getting the noisy work done off-site is little more mucking around, but it may prevent issues with dust and your neighbours.

    Look through yard sales and be prepared to wait a bit for the right tool at the right price.  I use a Disston rip saw that I paid 25 cents for.  'Worth every penny' and then a few thousand more.  However, Manhattan isn't known for yard sales, so this may not be an option.

    My strong suggestion is to buy either an old plane (Stanley/Record, pre WW2) or to spend money on a new one from Lee Nielsen, Clifton, HNT Gordon/Steve Knight Toolworks/Ulmia (If you want to use a wood-bodied plane) etc..  Don't buy a modern Record or Stanley unless you are able to lap the sole flat, or else you will never be able to joint with the plane. I speak from personal experience here. Send me an email off-line if you want details of how I flatten plane soles.

    My training is to use a No6 for jointing and general bench work - it's weight makes the job easier, but it's not too heavy to use for extended periods.  A No7/8 is more a specialised plane for jointing, which you will find you use rarely and watch it rust.  As well, I imagine that you won't be attacking large projects so will you need a long plane to do your jointing?  A No6 will satisfactorily joint a 5' board with a minimum of fuss. 

    I am making these comments assuming that you don't have a plane above a No5.  You can still use a standard Jack (No5) plane to joint with, just takes a bit longer. 

    If you have to buy a plane, consider a No6 as your general bench plane and then a No4 for smoothing at a later stage.  Also consider learning how to use a card scraper if you don't know already.  I find that I can do most work with these two planes plus card scraper.

    The quietest way to turn rough sawn timber (lumber) into dimensioned boards is by hand plane - just takes a bit (but not a lot) of practice to master but.  With the effort that you are talking about re: making a jig with an included blade, you could spend the same amount of time practicing how to use the plane and developing more skill with it.  This will also give you far more versatility in other aspects of your work.

    My first bench was a lightweight one - I still use it (40" x 18"), single vice.  Used to wobble under planing.  I just glued/screwed plywood on both ends of the frame as well as the back and voila, no movement. This must be the reason why this is a tried and true method in house construction to avoid house frames twisting under wind load.  To stop the bench from walking around, go with your idea of weighing it down.  How about attaching a cupboard underneath and using the weight of your tools to stop the bench from walking, as well as providing storage?

    Good luck in your endeavours (and this post is a bit longer than I anticipated - apologies)

    Cheers, eddie

    edit:  reword a section that was too disjointed.

    Edited 1/9/2003 5:19:44 PM ET by eddie (aust)

3. 
   macalex | Jan 09, 2003 02:41am | #13

   New blood here Mitch. How about thinking outside the square? Find someone nearby who has a workshop and do the heavy work of-site? There's no way you can rip and thickness anything bigger than a few feet in a small space without making noise (even hand tooling can be noisy when you're dealing with big lumber) and creating a heap of mess.

   Severtal years ago I decided to tackle a couple of small projects. I was once a full-time furniture-maker, but hadn't touched a tool for years and had no gear. I put an ad in my local paper, asking for people with spare workshop space and use of machines, and even here in my small New Zealand country town I got a handful of positive responses.

   Do the tidy, quiet work at home. Dimension and size elsewhere?

   Incidentally, I've just spent some money on some light machines and set up a small workspace in my 1/4 garage. I have to haul the table saw (on castors) outside, and I can't swing a cat, but it functions. Not sure about winter tho!

4. 
   RHHR | Jan 09, 2003 03:57am | #14

   HI,

   I saw something last weekend that may be of interest to you,

   A guy had taken the bottom of a outdoor LP gas grill; less grill, cover, and ash pit, but with frame , legs, and roll away wheels then attached his table saw to this and made a roll away table saw and storage area.  A wheel lock is your choice but advisable.  As crazy as it look it was very functional.

   I plan to make me one this weekend.

   Good Luck,

   RHHR

1. 
   Biscardi | Jan 09, 2003 04:32am | #15

   Right after I got married I lived in a little apartment. I made a Queen Anne chair with a spokeshave and a Buck knife and some chisles while squatting on a wooden crate in the kitchen. It was a horrid chair, I made a frightful mess everytime I cut a board.

   I can't tell you how much fun I had. I wouldn't miss it for the world.

   Go for it!

   Frank