Replies

1. 
   ring | Mar 06, 2006 12:03pm | #1

   Malcolm,
   I follow what you're saying, and I admit I don't know the answer. Never tried such a thing with brass. But my instinct tells me to try it using a lubricant, like what is used for cutting threads. I know it makes a huge difference when chasing threads on brass rod - without the lubricant it's almost impossible.
   I may be way off, and maybe you're already using something...just my thoughts. Keep trying.

   DR

1. 
   Malcolm | Mar 06, 2006 01:10pm | #2

   OK

   I raced out to the shop just now and tried it!

   All I had was light oil (known here as 3 in 1). It made a difference, but the tool still chatters. Disappointing, because a Lie-Nielson tool will make lovely beading in hardwood, nicer somehow than a routed shape.

   I'll keep trying - can anyone suggest a metal-working forum that might hace an answer?

   Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz

1. 
   Steinmetz | Mar 06, 2006 05:13pm | #3

   Malcolm, Why not use gravers? They are small hand held engraving tools used by jewelers and gunsmiths or, with the workpiece held down securely use various chisels and a hammer to 'chase' the workSteinmetz.

1. 
   RickL | Mar 06, 2006 06:05pm | #4

   Actually gravers are guided by hand and hammers are not used. They also make power gravers. Another way is with laser engraving. I'm gettin samples of laser engraving sent to me for an upcoming project. Another tried and true way is to put a resist down and acid etch the metal. And then there is always sandblasting.

   http://www.gesswein.com

1. 
   Steinmetz | Mar 06, 2006 06:41pm | #5

   Rick, When chasing you, use a hammer and chisel
   Another way to embellish your metal work is by Damaskeening
   Steinmetz.

   Edited 3/6/2006 10:44 am ET by Steinmetz

2. 
   RickL | Mar 06, 2006 06:59pm | #6

   You said gravers which is different from chasing. I believe you mean  Damascene.

   I was an art major in college with emphasis on scupture, printing, and casting and mold making and have professionally worked as a metalsmith for a number of years.

   Edited 3/6/2006 11:09 am ET by RickL

3. 
   Malcolm | Mar 06, 2006 11:17pm | #7

   Rick

   I had in mind the half-round beaded effect obtainable in wood from a beading tool. Thought (still do think) it would look interesting, and different, worked in 5mm brass. I can get close, but want a mirror-finish, not a chattery snakeskin effect!

   I suspect, from the deafening silence on this subject, that it can't be done?

   Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz

4. 
   RickL | Mar 07, 2006 12:41am | #8

   Not sure if I can picture the exact profile but some approximation could be done with a router bit. You'd still have to do some filing and sanding. No way around that part. If the beading tool gets you close do you have any riffler files?

5. 
   Malcolm | Mar 07, 2006 10:39am | #12

   > approximation could be done with a router bit <

   Yes, and I may try routing. Trouble is, this will be almost the last step in fabrication. Lots of time and money invested by that stage. Talk about the craftsmanship of risk (Pye's term). I don't fancy it!

   Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz

6. 
   Steinmetz | Mar 07, 2006 06:52am | #10

   Rick I referred to two methods using gravers AND /or chasing using a small chisel.
   Damaskeening I've done many times using my drill press to create multiple 'swirls' on metal tools that I polish up.
   If you cut the female end off a 1/2 socket wrench extension, to make the 'chuck',then fit it with a cube shaped piece of Cratex( rubber abrasive) into the square end of the tool Old saws,brass hardware,and the like look great and the swirls cover some deeper scratches. If you've ever eaten in an old fashioned stainless steel diner, you have seen plenty of this type of embellishment.

   Edited 3/6/2006 11:00 pm ET by Steinmetz

7. 
   Malcolm | Mar 07, 2006 10:33am | #11

   < If you cut the female end off a 1/2 socket wrench extension, to make the 'chuck',then fit it with a cube shaped piece of Cratex( rubber abrasive) into the square end of the tool. Old saws,brass hardware,and the like look great and the swirls cover some deeper scratches > 

   There's a guy called Anderson who has a really cool web page and who makes wicked-looking knives who has an on-line tutorial on doing exactly that!

   http://www.andersoncustomknives.com

   Malcolm

   Edit - here:

   http://members15.clubphoto.com/thomas633455/1007714/guest.phtml

   Edit 2 - and this has given me an idea! Mr Anderson calls this 'engine turning'. That's a look I like. What I may try is mounting cutting tools in my drill stand and producing a textured surface a bit like chequreing! I've been trying to figure out how to localise engine turned texture to provide finger grips on a small palm plane. Maybe this is it!

   http://www.macpherson.co.nz

   Edited 3/7/2006 5:07 am ET by Malcolm

   Edited 3/7/2006 5:14 am ET by Malcolm

8. 
   Steinmetz | Mar 07, 2006 03:35pm | #14

   Malcom. You're correct. That's exactly what I decribed. See attachment:Steinmetz.

   
9. 
   Malcolm | Mar 07, 2006 11:04pm | #17

   Yep, thanks

   And aint that a cool web resource! I like the look of Mr Anderson's knives, although I can't imagine why you'd need one that wicked-looking.

   I've thought carefully about a number of his techniques. His fit and finish standards are very high and the finished products are any aspiring metal-workers (and maybe woodworkers) benchmark.

   Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz

10. 
    Steinmetz | Mar 07, 2006 11:19pm | #18

    Check out his PRICES????

    
11. 
    Malcolm | Mar 08, 2006 03:41am | #19

    < Check out his PRICES???? >

    And he seems to make a lot of knives, so one assumes those are the prices he gets.

    There's an interesting point there. Over the years, on knots and in the woodworking literature, there's been a lot of discussion about prices, and about properly valuing craft work, and about making a living doing what we love to do.

    Mr Anderson seems to demonstrate one strand of this discussion - that if you can make desireable objects in premium materials to very high standards, you may be able to command the sort of prices that allow you to do that for a living!

    When I worked as a bespoke furniture maker in Wales in the 70s and 80s I just about got there. I may be able to do so again with elite tools when my current 'employment' expires.

    It's a hard equation to get right. The encouraging thing is that some people obviously do!

    Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz

2. 
   PADDYDAHAT | Mar 07, 2006 04:47am | #9

   I have read up to post #9 , and I recall an old time  tool and die maker(very old in 1962) telling me that different metals need very different bevels AND ANGLES on a cutter to cut clean. These old guys would grind their lathe cutter bits by hand and were rarely wrong because they understood what was required.

   The problem is that if you get the correct info- angle and pitch- how can you maintain it by hand? If you used a Stanley #66 or a new LN of that type, ground to the correct angle and supported with a correctly angled hardwood block, it might work. I would still worry about the speed of the cuts, it has to be a factor- I think. You do beautiful work, we are full of pride for you. Good luck,Pat

1. 
   Malcolm | Mar 07, 2006 10:42am | #13

   > different metals need very different bevels AND ANGLES on a cutter to cut clean <

   I think that's at least part of the answer. I find that if I vary the angle of the cutter, the propensity to chatter changes. Lower angles produce less chatter, and with a light lube, even less.

   I'll have a serious look this weekend. A very heavy tool may also help - lots of mass to damp out the jumping.

   Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz

3. 
   WillGeorge | Mar 07, 2006 09:31pm | #15

   Not a direct answer to your question but may give you something to 'think on'..

   http://members.aol.com/illinewek/faqs/metalwork.htm

   Google around on the gunsmith pages.. LOTS of good stuff out there.. May help

   I do a 'bit' of metalworking.. If you want a polished surface 'Ya HAVE to polish it!' Sort of a joke BUT.. most cutting in metal leaves some tool marks.. That's why most shops have hand finishers they have to pay for!

   You may try cutting 'almost to the dept you want then set you tool (new sharpening) to just 'kiss' the surface and work down to final depth from there.. ALWAYS just a 'KISS'

1. 
   Malcolm | Mar 07, 2006 10:59pm | #16

   Thanks Will

   I've posted your linked material to my work address and will print it today for my reference material. Quick scan tells me it's worth reading and thinking about!

   This forum is great for added value, eh?

   Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz

2. 
   Malcolm | Mar 08, 2006 05:32am | #20

   Will

   I've put a couple of photos up on my web page - bottom of the page at

   http://www.macpherson.co.nz/shop_made_planes.htm

   which will show you what I'm trying to do. I'm just about there straight from the tool, which probably means that with some hand-polishing I just might do ot!

   Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz