Hello all,
I am looking for advice on how to smooth difficult grain. I am working with some birds-eye maple and some very curly maple. I would like to smooth it using a method that maximizes the grain “pop”. I have been thinking of using a LN low-angle smoothing plane and a card scraper.
I am working on a jewerly box so the size of the panels are not large.
Does anyone have any further suggestions?
Thanks for your help.
MoWWorker
Replies
Mo
I second the low angle plane--take a look at the Veritas Bevel Up Smooth Plane--very hefty and you can also buy the 50 degree bevel blade that when honed and tuned to take a very thin shaving will tame that bird's eye and tiger maple and you won't need to scrape or sand. You will need a high cutting angle no matter what plane you use, however. Tom
The issue with Birdseye is one can pop out the eyes fairly easily, often breaking the surrounding grain somewhat.
A sharp blade works best in conjunction with the ability to try different effective cutting angles. I often smoothed it with a low angle blade and a scraper plane.
Then I resorted to another vintage tool...sandpaper. Trust me, there will be no difference in the look when finished.
Take care, Mike
Mike,
A thicknessing sander would do it.
Mel
PS but they make a heckuva lotta dust.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Yep. But that's why God invented dust collectors...[bg].
Seriously, sandpaper (by hand or machine) is the most trouble free means of attaining a good surface on certain woods/figure. While I do plane and scrape many woods to a final surface, BE is one I don't bother with for a final surface unless getting there hasn't revealed popped eyes.
Some pop easier than other boards. A sharp iron does make a difference. But at the first sign of trouble, the sand paper comes into play. Then again, I hardly ever use BE anymore. The last time I used some, the client changed the finish schedule to be dyed heavily and tinted lacquer. Near ruin as far as I was concerned.
I don't over like whitish woods anyway, but that seemed criminal.
Take care, MikeP.S. *that* client was the missus...
Mike,
You were speaking of the most important client in the world.
When my missus is happy, I am happy. There is a reason she is referred to as SWMBO.
Mel
PS - for those who were born in the last few months, SWMBO is "She Who Must Be Obeyed."Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hey Mel--and we all know the only valid response is Yes, Dear...
We've only been married 33 years...maybe one day I'll figure that one out.
Well, it's been an incredibly long few weeks. I'm going to clean up the shop as my last act of the day so I can try out my new plane for sliding DTs in the morning. That *is* for a honey-do project <g>.
Take care, Mike
Greetings,
I work with wild grains on a pretty regular basis. I have tried numerous planes and found the best for this purpose to be a highly tuned and very sharp old Stanley 4 1/2. I will admit I bought a Hock blade and chip breaker for it. This gives a polished smooth finish. Good Luck, BrinkleyBurns
Alternatives?
I usually use a light, 21" belt sander through 150 grit followed by a freshly-sharpened card scraper. Then I like BLO mixed with pine tar at the rate of a cup per gallon with some Japan drier added to bring out the figure in maple prior to varnish.
When done, nobody can tell sanding ever came into play. But the belt sander is as difficult to master as a good smoothing plane...that may be why it sometimes enjoys a poor reputation.
“When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work as our descendants will thank us for; and let us think...that a time is to come when those (heirlooms) will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, ‘See! This our father did for us.’ “ --John Ruskin.
tms, the host of our local Knots/WWA Fest and Pig Roast, made a "Scraping/toothing plane" for just such a purpose. Has anyone here tried a toothed blade on BE maple?? Here's a link to the construction. inspired by the Lie Nielson scraping plane, but with a toothed blade.
Tom, nice looking scraper. Check http://www.hamlertools.blogspot.com for a poor mans version of the Stanley 85 I did about 20 years ago.
Paul
That is some very impressive scraper/beading adaptations. I love the combination of metal and wood in the innovation path. I build kentucky rifles and this has been a long journey with many new ideas I never considered in the furniture building work I did. Building rifles made me adapt tools for the task. Now I grind, heat, shape metal to do the job. Simple silver solder and a good sharp edge makes unique shapes cheap and easy to make. Not to mention unique. Love your scrapers. Oh by the way were you doing something with the Triangle Woodworkers in Raleigh NC? Dan
Dan, I did a presentation for Triangle Woodworkers years ago on scrapers, I will never forget the gentleman who wanted to see the chair scrape shoot the shavings straight up for a replay.Paul
Charles,
Garnet paper? Won't that take forever and a lot of the paper (not to mention elbow grease)? Perhaps you mean, ".....as the final sanding step, for a fine grain-pop finish"....? But I must not put words in your fingers.
If one may forego the plane without being struck down by a lightning bolt, why not take a further risk and get out the Festool RO with a nice disc of more modern sand thereupon? Of course, the flounced sleeves, pointy hat and green jerkin may also have to be taken off to be replaced by dungaree and a peaked cap with "Tool Fool" or similar written across the front. So be it.
I am gratified that you are a man who can admit he was once wrong. I am wrong every day about lots of stuff but still no lightning bolt has fried my vitals. I have come to believe that either the gods don't care about our doings or that there are no gods, not even in America (i.e. its godless).
Therefore we must make our own rules concerning correct behaviour, even in respect of woodworking! We can always try again tomorrow if the rule seems foolish after a bit. Perhaps Ayn was right after all and not just a mad right wing looney woman whose books seem to have gone out of print so I had to read a dogeared second (or seventh) hand one with a page missing?
Anyway, I like planes now myself; but the Festool RO is tolerant of their presence in the shed, even when they prove capable of handling the birdseye or worse. (It must be my superior sharpening methods; or perhaps the plane maker knew what he was doing; or it may be that 62 degree cutting angle that a nice BU plane can have with the right blade in it).
Lataxe, a woodworker of catholic method.
lataxe,
this answers some of your questions....
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/FWNPDF/011152052.pdf
Lataxe:Ayn is still in print and available in some places. Also, In America we trust that God is still with us.All:SWMBO may be an old expression; it certainly expresses and old truth. However, the first time I noted its use was in the John Mortimer's Rumpole books and subsequent TV episodes.Joe, a Catholic with woodworking methods.
I'm surprised to read all of the recommendations to plane and sand?? Bird's Eye and Curly maple work very well with a simple card scraper tuned up. Lots of information on the site and Brian Boggs has a video here if you aren't using one already.
Ha, and I am always amazed by people who may think sanding is somehow less "authentic" or even is a "shortcut," or that sanding is ___________ (fill in the blank if another negative idea is appropriate).
Really. I'm not too much a noob when it comes to planes, trains, and automobiles (the phrase being used as a euphemism for hand tools y'all). I do know how to sharpen edge tools, including scrapers. I'll work the surface on BE with whatever gets me the desired result.
Sometimes that is straight from a plane. Other times it is a scraper following the plane. But if there's trouble--if an eye or two pop out? I'll finish sand just like people have been doing for thousands of years.
Take care, Mike
Mike,
Perhaps at the bottom of this particular thread is the unspoken fact birdseye maple varies a lot in the way it manifests. I confess that the stuff that came my way was from oldmill flooring, with various planks many of which contained ripple, curly and birdseye sections. However, the planks were still essentially planks and not the sort of burr or burl that birdseye also seems to tend to.
Perhaps it is the latter which may most easily pop out a part of the eye should it be savaged by a plane blade? The eyes in my mill planks seemed well integrated with the grain with no sign of any loose bits likely to pop out.
Is this description of the variable nature of what is all called birdseye accurate? Or have I failed to understand an essential differentiation somewhere?
Lataxe, a student.
Hi Master L,
Buried somwhere in my dribble is a sentance or two that with the BE that I have had, some is easily planed and other lanks are not. My typical course of action is to resaw, plane and or scrape any wood species (as I nearly always purchase 8/4 or 12/4). Should there be unacceptable tear out or, in the specific species under current discussion, sand.
Whether it is due to more/less figure of the BE type I cannot remember. The bathroom cabinet I built for the missus has a good bit of eyes and curl (if one could see it through the gunk).
Some planks, no matter the figure and or particular plank density, will plane beautifully (albeit with sharp irons and much effort). Some refuse to yield to the plane without a bit of "manageable" tear out but scrape well enough to finish off. Yet there are a few boards I have had that cannot even be sent through the drum sander (unless one used 40 grit followed by a scraper plane).
Speaking of old wood, in general I have found that it is better working wood regardless of species.
Take care, Mike
Lataxe old top,
Aside from the varying variances one finds in birdseye from hither thither and yon, there is one other aspect I'm surprised no-one has pointed out. That is, depending on whether one is trying to surface the inside or the outside face of the board, (from the perspective of the tree's growth rings) the birdseyes will present, if the board is split with something like a...lath-axe, either as "pimples" or "dimples". It is the dimpled side of the board from whence the eyes want to lift. Pimples can be shaved off flush with a surface, as any adolescent male soon learns when he picks up a Gillette for the first time.
Pip-pip, and cheerio,
Ray
Ray,
Ah, a gleam of understanding has lit in my auld noggin and 'twas thee that struck the lucifer.
Lataxe the enlightened
I'm not sure it matters what I say, because in the end you'll just do whatever you're going to do, but I made a simple little plane, about 6 inches long with a lie neilsen block plane iron and no chipbreaker. If you set it for a thin shaving, on birdseye and curly or whatever type of maple, it leaves a nice glossy surface. No tearout; the secret is a very tiny mouth opening. it took me a couple tries to make an adequate plane, but this one turned out al right. it's at an angle slightl higher than 45 degrees, not sure if that matters or not. but it works well and gives the maple that glow that seems like you can jst see into the grain of the wood. it feels nice and pleasurable to plane, figured maple that is.
dan,
You must be a member of the CLRMA. Do you know Mark Thomas? That's some very pretty work, btw.
Ray
I'm not following you on how you filed the edges of the scraper. Do you mean that you filed across the scraper -- like filing a saw? Or with the scraper -- like draw filing? I'm intrigued by concept of a toothed or serrated card scraper.
I take the mill file and skew it about 20 degrees or so and cut on the push. Then skew the same amount to the other side. This creates a burr without rolling it on both sides of the edge. You can roll it further with a burr tool(I use an old hardened valve stem)but I don't find this helpful. This is not a science its all "eyeballed" and quick. I have not tried draw filing it(90 deg) to the edge as this would probably create little valleys. Like Brian Boggs' video, I like to file the edge down a little before I set up my card scraper on the stones. I like to get rid of the old edge when it won't turn anymore. This serrated method is not a substitute for the crisp polished cutting edge you get when you "sharpen" the card scraper. This is a great way to quickly surface figured hardwoods that I found useful and truthfully I rarely use my toothing planes anymore. If you can't make sense of this description, maybe I can take a few digital shots and post them. I need the work in the media world. Good Luck.
I think I understand your description and will give it a try. I'd encourage you, though, to make a Smalser-esque tutorial on your methodology. This is the first I've heard of preparing a card scraper to work like a toothing plane.
Houston
Give it a try and see if it works for you. Let me know how it works out. I know how some of that wild grain can "get to you" but its just so pretty. I have gotten a big response on the maple and rifle building world. Lots of woodworkers come into the camp and learn the metal stuff along the way. On the flip side metal workers come into the wood camp and they bring their skills and the 2 camps kind of blend together. I know I use the files a whole lot more than I used to with cabinet only work. Now I have a box of files that range from a bastard mill file to a coarse farrier's file for really hogging off some wood. I love that thing. Its got these big teeth. Its like having a pet shark or something.
Dan
Hi Dan,
I've got a Nicholson 4 in hand tool that has file teeth/rasp on opposing ends, one side convex the other side flat, that is 8" long. Bought two of them at a yard sale for $1 each.
Works great for shaping cabriole legs and takes little sanding for a finished leg.
Will have to talk to the wifes farrier about that shark. Thanks for the tip!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
That Nich #4 is great tool. I have one right next to the bench when I'm shaping curves. Some guys leave it without a handle but I don't care for that. A trick I like to use to really smooth out some filing work when I get close is to rub some chaulk in the teeth(shallows out the depth) and smooth out. This is a draw-filing trick metal workers use. They put chaulk in the file when finishing something like a rifle barrel. It takes some of the grooves out of the file action. Works on wood but sometimes you have to touch it up with a scraper. Try it out. Wondering if things are cooling down in the Granite state?? Its been hot as @@@ here in NC.
Dan,
They put chaulk in the file when finishing something like a rifle barrel. It takes some of the grooves out of the file action.
Wow, will have to give that a try. Thanks.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
They sure do. I do too. A typical barrel is 42" long with 8 flats. I typically don't file the bottom flats to a bright smooth shine. Most of the barrels I am working with are very close to what you would like. Some companies like Rice Barrels here in North Carolina make such a beautiful "swamped barrel" that you only have to file for an hour and you are in great shape. In sum: take a fine mill file, rub it in a chaulk clump and fill some of the teeth. Now you are ready to "draw-file" the flats. If you are not familiar with this, you put your barrel in the vise and hold your file perpendicular to the barrel flat and go from the breech to the muzzle. Yep all 42" of that baby till its shining. Now you're ready for the other 7 flats. Ha. When you buy your second barrel, you will not only look at the bore for smootness, you'll be looking at what you have to do to get the outside "just right too."
Stanford wrote:
Dan, I would also add that (I hope I'm not alone) there comes a time in a project where fatigue usually sets in. Yep, it really happens. And the last thing I want to do is wrestle with a patch of intransigent grain here or there purely for the sake of remaining a 'purist.' If I can nip and tuck,when necessary, with a little paper attached to a wooden block then I'm going to do it. Every time.
Nah, Charles, you ain't alone. You mention "purists," well, I would assert there are none. Not one maker I know who is a true purist.
We all decide when/where to break our concept of "pure" period woodworking (whatever that even means). Not even the boys at Williamsburg are really purists, at least when it comes to tools--and sandpaper is a tool. As to "methods," they are still discovering those, altering what they believe as newer research dictates. If, with all their resources, they don't have it all figured out yet, I'm not gonna even try. (OK, so I wouldn't anyway.)
Scratching wood surfaces with something abrasive has been around way to long to go back pre-scratching. And besides, those bronze tools would be a pain in the butt to use.
Take care, Mike
As I've said before, flitting about the shop with a posey in one hand and a sonnet in the other (not my phrase) is about the last thing I intend to do.
Hah--sounds like something Ray would write!
Have a good day. Mike
dan,
After seeing your photos, I'd be inclined to think that any criticism of your work or methods is motivated by envy.
Ray
Dan,
I saw Ray's comment that he had seen photos of your work. So I did a search on your name and looked up a bunch of the photos you have posted. I am in awe. You do nice work.
One question. What do you do to finish your gunstocks that are made from curly maple?
Thanks,
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Awe inspiring work danmart. Thanks for sharing your wisdom with us. I look forward to learning more.
Dan,
Thank you for the fast and full feedback on staining gunstocks. Sometimes my writing does not say that my mind was thinking. I do furniture, not guns, but the effect on the curly maple gunstocks that you posted photos of, is stunning. I wondered if I could learn something that could translate to furniture.
I really appreciated your comments on red and sugar maple.
When it comes to all aspects of woodworking, I have become more careful as I have gotten older. I wear dust protection when sanding, and I try to use chemicals that are not too harsh. I really like the effect that you showed with the nitric acid, but I think I'll stick with aniline dye. I'll coat with dewaxed shellac, and then use Waterlox as you suggested.
If I have more questions, I know who to ask. You are a veritable font of information, and I really appreciate your willingness to share it.
Thank you very much.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
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