Hi,
How sturdy is cedar for building outdoor furniture? I’ve seen some pretty flimsy bird houses and tables build from cedar. Some species must be more dense. (suitable for furnitiure building) I’m not sure what kind of cedar boards I have in my basement. I bought them off a man who bought them at an auction. Paid $1.00 per board. Great deal. They are planed to exactly 1 inch thick. I think it’s definitely red cedar I have. What an aromatic smell. hmmmm! I’ve heard that working with certain types of cedar can be harmful. (the saw dust can also be irritating to the skin)They suggest you wear a mask when working with cedar. Is that true? and does that apply to all types of cedar?
How many species of cedar are there? What species are best for building outdoor tables and chairs?
Wanda
PS… so far I’ve had no luck finding “hard” pine. The building supply store I went to today only stocked 3/4 inch “soft” pine. They had no yellow pine. The largest width board measured 12 inches( nominal)… 11. 1/4 I’m definitely going to have to learn how to use that router of mine to joint the boards for the top of my small table. 🙂
Replies
WAnda, did you try that on-line lumber source I provided above?
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Port Orford cedar is very hard (think Oak), smells great and is nice to work with. It is very strong, grays nicely and is naturally rot resistant. I wouldn't use it for ground contact however, and it does not like to take paint. It is sort of "waxy". If it is available to you, try it!
Good Luck!
John
Wanda,
Jon Arno will come along soon and give you the low-down on cedar but what little I know (learned from Jon) is that what we think of as cedar in terms of both western red cedar and eastern cedar, are not true cedars. As a matter of fact, the term "cedar" is one of the more misused terms in the lumber industry. Port Orford Cedar, if that's what you have, is a very nice cabinet-grade wood. That's good stuff, you're lucky if that's what you have. Can't remember if that one's a true cedar (Help, Jon!).
But the soft wood with the aromatic smell that's commonly sold at lumber yards as "cedar" is good for outdoor furniture. It is surprisingly strong. I have made many adirondack chairs out of it. They are light and strong. I use the "eastern" variety of it. Finish with spar varnish. Renew the finish with a new coat every year or so.
The only caution is: just like redwood or cypress, you have to remember that this wood really, really wants to split near the endgrain, so you have to be careful. Drill pilot holes for everything. Be careful not to tighten woodscrews too tightly. Carefully counterbore and plug screw holes. Mortise and tenon joints will "blow out" if they don't fit.
Use dust collection and moderation when exposed to the dust. I have a shop in my basement but I also have a workbench and some handtools in my study upstairs where I practice dovetails and make small projects like toolboxes. I usually have a couple pieces of cedar around for this and it gives the room a nice smell. A little bit is pleasant, a moderate amount starts to smell like medicine, and a lot is an irritant.
Hope this helps - if nothing else, another perspective, which is what you get a lot of from this forum.
Ed
Just curious, does Port Oxfort Cedar look and smell like common lumber yard cedar? Is it just a slow growing variety? Is the grain tighter? Does it have more/less bug repellant resin?
-Ken
Don't know - can't get it around here, except at boutique (expensive) hardwood stores. (I know that it is a softwood). Maybe someone else knows. I read in Van Arsdale's book on Japanese shoji screens that Port Orford cedar and Alaska cedar, or yellow cedar, are two of the best woods for shoji screens and highly sought after by folks practicing that art. Ed
On the irritation factor with cedar, I Googled a couple of weeks ago on cedar and allergies/toxicity and it's pretty clear that cedar is a big contributor to severe respiratory problems for workers in mills and factories that work with cedar. In the first couple of pages, I didn't see anything about skin reactions, but when I was actually working with some old cedar for a chair I found that it caused pretty intense itching. I'm not easily allergic to things, so that was a bit of a surprise. It's probably advisable to wear long sleeves, use at least a mask, or better a respirator, and toss your clothes in the wash after you work.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi,
Thanks for your input. I'm getting a real education on wood this week. LOL I will definitely check out that website. Just haven't had much time this week. Too busy gardening. :)
I had a good chat with one of the men at our local hardware store. Just asking him about the different types of building materials they sell. They do sell construction grade pine lumber which is ok for building outdoor furniture. But a good grade of spruce would be a good alternative. What is a good thickness for outdoor furniture? 5/4 quarter lumber? ( 1 1/4 iches thick) or 6/4 stock..(1 1/2" thick) I think most woodworking plans call for 6/4 stock. My friend builds all of his outdoor furniture out of 2X pine. But if you ask me 1 inch lumber (a true 1 iches thick) looks best for adirondak tables.
Hopefully the new book I bought, How to build Outdoor furniture will provide me with some useful information on how to pick out lumber and how to properly stain and protect it. It has some really great projects ........ One of these days when I learn to make a mortise and tenon joint I'll be able to build the cedar planter that's pictured in the book. Something I've been wanting to do for a long time. Plus they have plans for a fold up chair. Now that would be cool!
Wanda
The primary domestic "cedars" include:
As all these species have good decay resistance, the extractives that provide this protection have biocidal properties. As such, they can cause a variety of reactions with different individuals including respritory irration and allergies and contact dermatitis. Long term exposure to species like Port Orford cedar can be associated with liver cancers. As such, the recommendations of FG regarding precautions to minimize exposure should be heeded.
The differentiation between hard pine and soft pines relates entirely to the wood's anatomy -- specifically to the transition between the earlywood (springwood) and the latewood (summerwood) within each growth increment. In the soft pines, this transition is gradual while in the hard pines, it is abrupt. Thus when you look at the end grain of the hard pines, you will be able to notice two distinct zones within each growth ring. The latewood (summerwood) is appreciably more dense than is the earlywood.
The soft pines include both Eastern and Western white pines, Sugar pine. The hard pines include the Southern Yellow pines (shortleaf, longleaf, loblolly and Slash), Lodgepole pine, Red pine, and Jack pine. Ponderosa pine is also a hard pine but in slow growing old-growth trees, the closeness/narrowness of the rings significantly decreases the abruptness of the transition so in many cases, the wood has soft pine characteristics.
The availablility of the different pines is often based on the region in which you live. It is almost impossible to find the hard Southern YP in the Pacific Northwest and while I was in the midwest, to obtain soft pines like Eastern white, I had to specifically request them because of the predominance of the SYP's in the market.
I hope this helps.
Stanley Niemiec --- Wood Technologist
My Dad told of making what they called "bug poison" by boiling cedar branches in a wash pot back in the teens and twenties. We were raised in East Texas and the only type of cedar I know that grows there is aromatic red cedar. I had someone tell me the insecticide Pyrethian (sp?) is made from Cedar trees.
When I work cedar or oak I wear a mask.
Gods Peace
les
Ooops, natural pyrethrin originated from Chrysanthemums (specifically, Dalmatian Chrysanthemums or Persian Chrysanthemums).forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I live in central Texas, and I can tell you for a fact that lots of bugs eat our local "cedar", which is actually juniper. I've seen lots of old houses set on "cedar" stumps and posts that have been eaten away by termites. That goes for my Western Red Cedar deck. The only wood that I've ever seen that is termite proof is "Bois'D'Arc", with the bright yellow wood that produces "horse apples." We used to scatter these around the house for a roach repellant. I've seen beams and piles made from this wood that are well over 150 years old, and so hard you can't drive a nail in it. These trees used to sprout along fence lines from green posts set by the farmers and ranchers. Just a bit of trivia....
Tom I gathered up a few "horse apples" and spread them around my backyard a few years back trying to elemitate a flea infestation. It helped, can't say it got rid of them all but it did help. I don't like to use any more chemicals in my enviroment than I have to. I was told by a friend raised on a farm it was a common practice to have a bois-d-arc tree or two around the barn for this purpose. I read or saw on a news show that the famous "hedge rows" in England that gave the German tanks problems during WW 2 were bois-d-arc trees mostly.
A good mixture to spray on a vegetable garden for insects is garlic, onion, hot peppers, run through a blender mix with red pepper a little olive oil mix with some water to thin it down. Strain through panty hose add more water and spray on your garden. I don't have a garden anymore but I have used this and it worked.
God Peace
les
Shoot, next time I've got some salsa left over, I'll just go dump it in the sprayer and git after them 'hoppers.....
Hi,
I have 15 boards of cedar. Each measuring roughly 1 X 6.. actual... 3/4 inch by 5 1/4 inches wide. Now comes the hard part. I have to decide what to build out of it. Not sure what species of cedar it is. Just wondering if anyone can give me an idea of what to build out of it. I was planning on building a small adirondak table. Could always make planters out of it. I want to make something nice out of it.
I was hoping someone here could tell me by looking at the attached picture what species of cedar these boards are cut from.
Wanda
here's the picture I forgot to post with the last e-mail.
Wanda
Wanda it looks like what I call Red Aromatic Cedar to me. It's pretty soft, not a real strong wood. When I was a kid I enjoyed using it to carve with. Cut very easy and smelled good.This is the wood cedar chest are made out of and I have seen a few wardrobes made from it also.
I have an old marble top dry sink with 2 door storage underneath. I used the 1/4 red cedar slats they use to line closets to line the inside. My wife keeps her Bridge supplies and playing cards there. The cedar odor is quite pleasant when you open the door and her Bridge partners like it. Anything to keep the ladies happy.
Gods Peace
les
"Anything to keep the ladies happy." Les -- you, Sarge and ToolDoc all have a great life-philosophy, I love it!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi Les,
I finally decided today after much delibertion what I was going to build out of those cedar boards. Considering they're only 5 1/4 inches wide and about 38 inches in length....They would be too narrow for a dresser andn not quite long enough for the table I had in mind. Just wondering if I could use it to build another adirondak chair for the garden. But if the cedar is the red aromatic cedar you think it is perhaps that isn't such a great idea. I know it would make a nice cedar chest. But I don't have room for a cedar chest. Do you think the cedar I have would be ok for an adirondak chair. How does it compare to spruce? If it has the same strength as spruce that would be ok. I built the Adironkak chair I have in the garden out of regular 1X 6 dressed spruce (3/4 X 5 1/2) and it seems pretty strudy.
Wanda
From the look of it, it is most certainly juniperus virginiana aka red cedar. There were cedar fence post 40 or more years old on my property and they were solid and outlasting the barbed wire nailed to them. You should get good resistance to rot if you use them on outdoor furnature although the white places may rot out on you.
BJGardening, cooking and woodworking in Southern Maryland
Wanda, another item that is (was) frequently made out of that type of cedar was miniature chests, like a miniature blanket chest. It seems to me I heard once that girls would get them as presents when they graduated from high school or some such thing. You might look around for plans along those lines.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Yuor right on the money with that one F_G. It was called a Hope Chest. I never heard of using aromatic cedar for anything other then lining closets and blanket chests. But..... They make little boxes and crafts out of this cedar up in the Pocono Mountains here in Pa., just go to any tourist trap and there they are.
Dave in Pa.
Wanda I don't remember ever seeing red cedar used for anything to sit on. I believe the boards you have are too thin for this purpose. I have lately seen a few drawers on chest and a desk with the drawer sides and back made out of cedar, looks nice and again smells good.
I am certainly not an expert on wood but my limited experience with spruce tells me it is a much stronger wood and will bend a long way before it will break. The cedar doesn't have the flexibility the spruce does. I have a little of the cedar like you and I plan on using it to rebuild the inside of an old steamer trunk when I getaroundtoit.
Maybe if you don't have a project to use it on right now, store it, something will come along. I have three walnut boards I've had for over thirty years, I have lived in 3 different houses in that time, and I have moved them 3 different times and my wife has pointed this out on more than one occasion that someone is nuts to keep moving these boards around. Hmmmmmmmm
Gods Peace
les
What you have there is the Juniper. Very soft, with very hard, brittle knots. Be extra careful when sawing through the knots, because pieces have a tendency to fly.
It's not a very strong wood, and as already stated, bugs still like it. The sap wood will rot off fairly quickly.
Dave, what's the giveaway in Wanda's picture that it's juniper and not the red aromatic cedar?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
They are one in the same.
Naaaah, you're kidding! really?? Didn't know that.... Actually, I should know that, 'cause of a thread on juniper awhile back. Duh!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
C'mon now, would I kid you? ;^}
Hello,
OH NO! It's too late now. I've gone and build an adirondack chair out of the cedar boards. But if you're right Les and the boards are not as flexible as spruce ....... I just won't let any really big people sit in that chair.
I had no problems cutting the boards on the table saw or cutting out the pieces on the jigsaw. The boards didn't split when I screwed the pieces together. Not at all like pine which splits so easily. No problems with knots. If I was going to make a chair out of pine I'd go with a thicker board.
Do you usually build chairs out of 1 1/2 (2X lumber) ? The chairs I've seen have all been built from 3/4 inch lumber (1X). And they seem to be fairly sturdy.
Wanda
"hedge rows" in England that gave the German tanks problems during WW 2
I distinctly remember the the Germans attacting England with airplanes and later on with rockets. I don't remember the German tanks crossing the channel. You must have meant to say something else.
BJGardening, cooking and woodworking in Southern Maryland
Substitute "France" for "England"--and while you're at it, might as well substitute "U.S." for "German", since the hedgerows were at least as dangerous for allied armor. (Or am I thinking about WWIV in Kansas--in which case substitute "corn fields" for "hedgerows.")
". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
Bee Jay you could very well be right I remember seeing a news reel at the theatre (picture show) about the hedgerows and later years a documentary on TV about the same. I think I'm remembering right about the bois-d-arc trees being a good part of the hedgerows.
What are you cooking in Southern Maryland?
Gods Peace
les
What are you cooking in Southern Maryland?
Its got to be those blue point (?) crabs from the bay. If it is I'll be right down. Save me a spot.
Dave in Pa.
Wanda, If you have a table saw, make sure you have a really good fine tooth blade, I use 40 teeth X 8 inch. Run your board real slow, take your time, and you don't need a jointer. That is all I use and have joined many table tops. The key is patience. Good Luck!
Fasteddie
Wanda
I've built outdoor furniure using who knows what kind of cedar from the local lumber yard with good results. My only complaint is that the stuff is soft and dents easily if you don't take care of it. Now I build all of my outdoor furniture out of construction grade douglass fir. I buy 2x12 stock, stack and sticker it in my garage for a couple of months and then rip it to the needed widths. It stays true and is very strong and much more dent resistant than cedar. the only downside may be that it doesn't look good stained and clear finished. Outdoor furniture lasts much longer if its painted and that's what I've been doing, one coat of oil primer and two coats of latex outdoor paint. If you don't mind painted furniture its the way to go!
tom
Hi Tom,
Next time I'm in buying lumber I'll have to check and see if they have any construction grade douglas fir. I'll be lucky if I can get construction grade pine. I'm just wondering... If I decide to use pine to build my outdoor table can I rip the boards immediately or do I have to store the wood for a while before cutting it?
Wanda
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