I have recntly purchased some spalted maple for a small table. Can you guys give me any advice on working with it. I know that I need to be careful with breathing the dust but any info on workability would be a big help.
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Replies
M,
I've made some things from spalted sycamore (a bit like "soft" maple); and also from spalted beech. As you say, the dust is a concern because the fungii that cause the spalting, although dead when the wood is dried, leave some weird chemicals behind. (Are they poisonous or just inclined to send one off to see the fairies for a while, one wonders)?
I found the spalted sycamore (from 2 separate sources) to work just like any timber. However the spalted beech was rather punky in places and easily damaged. Also, it wasn't ideal for gluing or screwing where the punkiness was marked (it rumbles or otherwise breaks too easily). Punky areas also drank oil finish then exuded it for ever more.
I don't know if it was the wood species or just the time the timber had been left to rot (ie get spalted) that caused the punkiness. Anyway, it's the feature to watch for and avoid, if possible. If you can't avoid it entirely, try to avoid making the punky bits into joints or other critical parts of the piece; and go sparingly with the finish or put on somethng that just sticks to the surface.
They do say that you shouldn't use spalted timber for kitchen furniture on which foodstuffs might be prepared. However, if you seal the surface, I would still risk it (did risk it - I made a kitchen table and a matching trolley - no one is dead yet or even seen a fairy).
Lataxe, a bit spalted himself these days.
Lataxe,Thanks for the info. I am just making the top out of spalted maple so the only joints will be edge joints. I do have a few punky spots that I hope will plane well but they are not near the edge joints. I like spalted wood alot and may have to copy your idea on a larger table but I just wanted to practice on a smaller table. If you do a study on the effects of the dust let me know because you may be onto something.....anyway thanks again for the info.mike
I just finished a table in spalted (see the gallery page). It worked beautifully and there were very few soft spots. I was pretty careful about dust handling after a discussion with a friend who is a pulminologist who specializes in chronic lung conditions.
He mentioned that there is such a thing as "woodworkers lung" Up until recently, they thought that it was caused by particulates but recent research has shown that it is caused by mold and fungus. It is not clear the source (from the shop or from the wood) but he reemphasized the need for breathing protection with spalted materials.
I solved the problem partially by hand planing the material with a #4 rather than sanding. It cut beautifully and there was no small particles generated.
Anna
Cutting spalted woods can give you a lung infection that is completely debilitating. Anybody cutting this stuff without first class dust control and without a first class respirator are really rolling the dice.
Anna,
As I understand it, the spalting in wood is due to fungal growths but I'm less clear whether that (spalting) growth contains spores or not. It's the fruiting bodies (eg mushrooms and toadstools) that produce the spores with fungi and the mycellium (the white threads that actually grow in and consume the material - wood in this case) are spore-free.
But I don't know if spalting contains (dried out) fruiting bodies and their spores or whether it is just mycellium. Perhaps it depends on the degree of spalting- ie the degree to which the fungus has matured in the wood? Some spalted wood - typically the unpunky stuff, does not smell of mold whilst the punkier stuff ofen does, even when dried out. Is the smell indicative of spores, I wonder?
In all events, within workshops that often have fungus in corners, crevices, roof spaces and so forth, it is the spores from those fungii that are probably the most insidious and health-risky. Anywhere that is damp and dirty now and then (eg a shed/shop) provides the opportunity for such stuff to grow. They would hugely outnumber those that may get into the air from cutting a bit of spalted timber.
But such spores are in every breath of air you breathe. It's large concentrations of them (eg from damp, dusty workshops) that make for the larger risk and the need for protection.
One final point. Spores are microscopic and clingy. You woud need very, very sophisticated breathing gear to keep them out - best HEPA filter standard at least. They are like pollen and hay fever - impossible to avoid but perhaps it's possible to reduce the quantity that one is exposed to.
Lataxe
Read:
http://www2.woodcraft.com/pdf/79A55.pdf
Boss,
The pdf info from Woodcraft is rather vague, though: "...may contain spores..." Also "toxins" are mentioned - which may be biological (ie spores to grow in your lungs) or chemical (ie weird compounds that attack your nervous system).
I am prompted to go and do some Internet hunting for more definitive research....
Lataxe
I would always assume that the spores are present. Otherwise, you'll have to put the stock under microscopic analysis which doesn't seem reasonable.
The potential for protracted illness is great. I would advise anybody against sawing into molding/molded wood in a cavalier fashion.
http://www.ehponline.org/members/1999/suppl-3/469-472sorenson/sorenson-full.html
Edited 7/6/2007 7:33 am ET by BossCrunk
Here's an excerpt from a Jon Arno email from a few years ago:
So, there are both mold and fungii present in spalted wood. Personally, I don't need to know what parts of these critters may or may not be existant in the wood. The stuff is nasty dangerous -- the tiniest bit of dust gives me a headache and tight chest. I always wear a respirator and long sleeves when cutting any spalted wood.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
The sanding of this stuff is the worst. I have done it one several hollow turned vessels, and since parts of it are softer than others, sanding actually makes a turning out of round and creates indentations.
As far as spores, I remember reading that they have been found, like seeds in ancient Eqyptian tombs and whne moisture is re-introduced they can germinate or proliferate. Once that stuff is liberate dinto the air of your shop I'm not sure you can ever git rid of it. I have recently moved to a new shop and am avoiding the spalted stuff. Is this overly paranoid?
Jay
"Is this overly paranoid?" In a word, yes. Those organisms are around in the air -- we live in nature's world after all. ;-) Here's an excerpt from one of Jon's posts (click here for the full text):
Wish Jon were here to join the conversation. :-(forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Girl,
I also read that fungoids account for up to 25% of the world's biomass (yes, one quarter). Those spores are certainly present in every lungful you breathe, even outside at the top of a hill next the ocean.
However, it is indoor spores, concentrated by ideal growing conditions (damp spots and plenty of stuff to rot) that are the most dangerous to human health, it seems. Does the spalted stuff present a high risk?
I suspect it does but only to those who are already susceptible and breathe in a good lungful, for whatever reason. Also, inhaling the wood dust inclusive of spores (even in small numbers) may be detrimental as the wood dust acts as a spore-carrier to the lung.
However, I am guessing a bit now. Anecdotal evidence of bad reactions in some woodworkers along wth the medical facts concerning the biological and toxic dangers of fungal spores (as pointed at by the Boss) mean that the Boss is right - take extra care with spalted stuff.
But don't let it frighten you. It can be used safely if you are normally healthy, not allergic and reduce the dust as much as possible. Personally I use a dust sucker on the machine, air recycler in the shed and wear a mask containing a HEPA filter. Why take chances?
Lataxe
Of course, the world is full of microorganisms of all kind as our own bodies, but there are some that are pathogenic, especially when the load exceeds our immune sytem and other mechanisms of clearing them. When aerosolized and inhaled in large quantities these bugs may be infectious to humans. While I am a physician, I am not a microbiologist or infectious disease specialist, so I just don't know. We are all speculating unless there is someone out there with particular knowlege. Any pulmonologists?
Jay
I was responding to "Once that stuff is liberate dinto the air of your shop I'm not sure you can ever git rid of it." And in so doing, I was assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that the concern was about the fungii and molds infecting other lumber. Mea culpa if I that was an incorrect assumption.*
I'm extremely careful when I saw or sand spalted wood, because I know I'll have a reaction to it otherwise. But I don't have any concerns about simply having it on the lumber rack in my shop.
*yes, I know that's not a completely appropriate use of the Latin phrase.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 7/6/2007 9:33 pm by forestgirl
No problem. Sorry if I was vague. I meant you continue to stir up the dust from surfaces in your shop and breathe it, not that other wood would become affected (or infected). I did read that you could intentionally infect another green log by keeping it in direct contact in a firewood pile, with a spalted log, if you were trying to create more spalted wood, for turning. Never tried it.
Jay
Forestgirl.
I am not a pulmonologist, but do see one regularly. I had the misfortune of getting a fungal infection. It is not fun to have one and the medication had to be taken for over a year to clear it up. The medication can also stay in your body for several years. It is to be noted that the fungal infection did not come from woodworking. Anyway, I have been told quite definitively that one should take precautions when creating wood dust (DC, Respirator, not a dust mask, and air cleaner) and specifically that I should not use spalted woods because of a higher risk of infection. My understanding is that anyone with any kind of lung problems, including a history of smoking, or lowered immune systems from medications should be very, very careful. As I said, I am not a medical expert, but have experienced this first hand.Alan
I'm hoping to not go where you have tread vis a vis lung problems. Hence the respirator when working with spalted stock. Actually, the last time I cut up some spalted maple logs, I pretty much decided that the next time, I'll move my bandsaw outside first! (Still using, as Bob says, the respirator. Man this thread's getting complicated! LOL.)
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 7/9/2007 8:58 am by forestgirl
forestgirl,
And stilll use the respirator outside, right?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"And stilll use the respirator outside, right?" Yes, of course. Just keep the big dust out of the shop, put it back in nature where it belongs (I live more or less in the woods.)
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 7/9/2007 8:59 am by forestgirl
forestgirl,
And all this time I thought you lived in the forest?! I'm sure you were expecting that.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
slightly off topic here...ive never heard of a price for spalted woods. lets say spalted maple...a lot more than regular maple?
A lot more, yes.Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.
well im already paying 6.35 for 4/4 hard maple. how much more is maple of the spalted variety? just a ball park number
About double what you're paying (or more) for really outstanding spalted pieces.
Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.
Edited 7/9/2007 3:39 pm by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
Amishness asked: "a lot more than regular maple?"Whether or not it's a LOT more really depends on where you are, I guess. My sources price spalted somewhat more than "regular" maple but not as high as fiddleback. But then again, unfigured maple tends to be 3.50-4.50/bf here (or even less, from small sawmills).
I have a large load of 12/4 spalted maple drying, and is now ready to be cut up. I intend to do the major cutting outside, and will then surface it (jointers create large chips, as do planers. I'm then ready to spray on a copper based fungicide--all using a powered respirator. Anything else I should be doing?
>Wish Jon were here to join the conversation. :-(Me too. I found Jon's discussions of wood and its properties quite fascinating and enlightening. I liked his political commentary too. :) Gone but not forgotten. Dick
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