I am renting an old building and use it for my workshop. Very little natural light can get in, few windows and no skylights. There are pletnty of flouresent lights but they don’t seem to be as efficient as they should be. Has anyone tried a differt type of lighting and do you know what the best portable lighting is? I am using halogen work lights on stand but they get very hot.
Thanks, John
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I have just built a new shop. I am older (74) so need much more light than a young person but I get good light with T5 fluorescent lighting. The T5 is quite a bit more efficient than the old T12 lights. The shop has eight fixtures drawing some over 200 watts each in an area of a little less than one thousand square feet.
I have big Thermopane windows which I wish I had not installed because they are a waste of light and heat. One of these days I would like to post a picture story of my shop. Maybe someone will be interested.
There's a chance I'm about to get a 30x60 building that will in a large part be a shop. What would you guys do to light this area if you were starting from scratch?
Oops, it looks like I missed you the last time through. GaryPC, a lighting specialist seems to have missed you too. As I mentioned, I have some eight fixtures of four 52 watt T5 bulbs for some 1000 square feet. It gives a nice bright light. Gary says, for the money, it is probably better to install the T8 as they are less expensive. You might email Gary to get a more comprehensive answer as to how many and the placement of them.
Thank you for your last email. That number of T5's in 1000 sqft sounds great. The 54W T5 is a 4700 lumen lamp compared about 2750 lumens for the 32W T8 lamp, which means you have the equivalent of about 54 T8 lamps. A quick calc shows that you are probably be getting and average light level of 125 footcandles at 36" off the floor -very nice and no need for task lighting I expect unless the walls are dark.
"Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. Begin it now!" -Goethe
Well, as I say, I'm no expert, but I can say this -- They surely give a lot of light. You're right, I don't need task lighting and there are no noticeable shadows. Not to sure about the expense. The electrician got them and I installed them.
After following this discussion with great interest I took a good look at my shop lighting, something I never found satisfactory, and decided the change it.
Using the knowledge gathered here I replace the old T-12 florescent fixtures with T-8s.
Wow, just wow. The difference is unreal.
Thanks all here for the inspiration to finally doing something about the lights.
But, then again....... The amount of light one needs is directly proportional to ones age. :>)
Paul
Edited 7/5/2007 2:12 pm ET by colebearanimals
I hear ya on that one! What really convinced me that it was "worth it" was when I re-did the lighting in my basement. Never mind the cheap 70's "wood" paneling, the hideously scary looking vinyl asbestos tile, and the mouse infested drop ceiling. The scariest part was when I did side by side comparisons of the new T8 lights with 6500K bulbs vs. the old hodge-podge of cheap fluoros & incandescent bulbs. Honest to god it was the difference between "okay, this has potential" and "omg, that's Freddy's Kruegger's basement!"Upgrading the lighting in the basement, laundry, garage, and "shop" has been one of the best decisions on this house.Glen
Two years ago I put in 8 T-5 HO 4' (actually 46") fixtures with 4100K bulbs. The T-5 bulbs are 5/8" diameter and will be the standard a few years from now just as T-8 are becoming the current standards. Several dollars more but I love them. I have a 2 car garage as my shop (insulated, electric heater. ) As I get older I enjoy the additional light. They are arranged with 2 fixtures over my main work bench at the end wall on 1 light switch. A second light switch turns on the other 6 (arranged in 3 rows across). I put pull cord switches on 4 of those 6 fixtures. Bottom line is that I can control my lighting level to 1,2,4,6,8 fixtures with two wall switches (and the help of the pull cord switches) and turn it all off with the 2 wall switches. I normally use 4 fixtures but can have lots more for the days when brightness counts.
I would buy strip fluorescent fixtures with reflectors and (2) F32T8 lamps, preferably with electronic ballasts. If the shop is like mine and only used 4-16 hours a week I would be okay with the more common but less efficient magnetic ballasts. If used for longer periods then I would look for electronic ballasts preferably that come with the fixtures. My local hardware store carries electronic ballasts only separately for about $16 a piece from memory. Then I would toss (recycle) the lamps if any came with the fixure and get name brand (GE, Phillips, Osram, Sylvania) lamps that are 4100'K and minimum 85CRI (color rendering index)
Then I would suspend these by chain at about 8 feet above floor and on a roughly 8-foot by 8-foot pattern to fill the 30x60 room. This is about 1 watt per square foot and should be plenty for general illumination. Many folk would say that double this amount is better, I can't disagree with that, in which case I would use 4-lamp fixtures or use 2-lamp fixtures in continuous rows 8-foot on center. I don't do this as it is not a very 'green' thing to do. One could do this all the same and switch every other fixture on a separate light switch ... if I were laying out a new shop this would be very tempting ... the extra light would only get used when really needed, and would be great to have.
You can get plastic tube guards for the lamps, or wire guards that mount on the reflectors, if you are concerned about striking the lamps. If the ceiling is painted white I would consider dropping the reflectors, a white ceiling and white walls together will create a well lit shop. When light gets to bounce around like that the visual comfort and acuity is greatly improved.
Then I would place task lights at each machine. I use (2) 64 watt compact fluorescent plastic floodlights above my table saw. These were $20 each from Cosco and really designed to be used as building exterior flood lights. With just the strip lights I get about 25 footcandles on the table top, with the floods added I get about 120 footcandle which for me is just the right amount.
Lastly if I had two phases available for lighting the shop I would put half the lights on each phase to reduce the stroboscopic efffect of rotating equipment that can make a rotating object appear to stand still. When I have laid out lighting for large metal and woodworking machine shops up to 40,000 sqft this is considered important. In my shop I am not worried as I used my ears as much as my eyes to know what is happening, there's usually just me in it.
Good luck with your new space. Any questions or comments please don't hesitate, I'm also very keen to hear what others have found to work for them.
Gary"Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. Begin it now!" -Goethe
Hey Gary,Great thoughts, and lots of help for me. I appreciate it.I see that a university in my town is having an auction coming up in which they are auctioning off large amounts of arena lightsThey describe them like this "1000-watt high bay fixtures multi tap with bulbs". Also some that are described "400-watt high bay fixtures multi tap with bulbs.I assume these are halogen or metal halide or mercury lights of some sort? I'm assuming they're not ideal for the shop because of warm up time, but I'd love your thoughts as I can probably get them fairly cheaply.They are selling 36 of the 1000watters and 16 of the 400watters.
Glad to have been of some help.
The 400W fixtures whether high pressure sodium HPS or metal halide MH (possibly mercury vapor but unlikely) are what they say they are, they are high-bay fixtures and really are not practical below a 20 or 25 foot mounting height to the bottom of the fixture. Too bright but more importantly way too glary at low mounting heights. These fixtures are typically up to 3 feet high so require a 25-30 foot ceiling. Even at 20 feet I would normally use 175-250W metal halide. Further in the smaller workshops below 3000-5000 sqft the 400W will use a lot of power, produce a lot of heat, and take up to five minutes to warm up or re-strike/re-light.
Even color corrected HPS has a relatively poor color rendering index of 65-70, MH is better though and can be above 90 which is good. The "multi-tap" probably means voltage taps, for example 208V 240V 277v and 480V, but there is not likely to be a tap for 120V
http://www.venturelighting.com/Technical_Center.html has more on MH. One could do a good job of lighting a small workshop in medium sized (say 100W) metal halide lamps, but I'm certain it is not as cost effective in the short or long term as fluorescent unless you have ceilings 12ft and above. "Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. Begin it now!" -Goethe
You're the man, Gary. You've saved me from sure foolisness in auction purchases.I would like to have the lights as high as possible just in case I use the space for my kids instead of exclusively a shop, but it sounds like these lights are just too much.Matthew
Tinkerer,
I believe your fluorescent lights are T8's not T5's, unless they've come out with a new one a I don't know about yet.
I agree they are likely to be T8's and not T5's. T5's do exist though, they are the current rage in commercial lighting. T5's can be a little more efficient than T8's but only in warmer environments. The benefit of T5 is the smaller cross section (5/8" diameter versus 8/8") which allows for better light control and reduced fixture dimensions due to the smaller light source. But generally for the higher cost of the T5 there are neglibable benefits. Same for T4's that are also available.
The best for shop lighting I think are 4100'K T8 lamps with a Color Rendering Index of 85CRI or better. Visual acuity improves considerably at higher temperatures but I find 5000-6500'K to be too bluish white for general overhead use. I do however use a 6500'K compact fluorescent fixture as a task or up-close work light. Regular cool-white lamps from the hardware store are around 4100-5000'K but have a CRI in the low 60's, they are cheaper but light quality is poor.
For the sake of efficiency and lower power bills electronic ballasts are better. While they cost more than magnetic ballasts they typically pay for themselves in a few years.
Reflectors on shop lights are another way to improve lighting, by directing light downwards where needed."Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. Begin it now!" -Goethe
I've been looking into changing out all the flourescent fixtures in my shop. Internet research has been some help, but I still have a ways to go before I'm convinced of the payback. So a few questions: Why do you say the t5 fixtures are only efficient in warmer environments? And "warmer" then what? Are you a lighting consultant or is this personal research? Can you point out a good internet source of info or a book?Thanks.
If you go to http://www.ushio.com/products/generallighting/f-ultra5t5.htm there is one reference to higher lumen output at higher operating temperatures. Off hand I'm not sure how hot that is, lighting vendors have told me warehouse temperatures (and not airconditioned rooms) and I have heard 50'C. Even compact fluorescent from memory needs 35'C for optimal output. Sorry no more detail than this just now. Oh if I said efficient I should have said 'more efficient' There is nothing wrong with the T5 except that you don't generally get your moneys worth compared with T8.
Yes I am a lighting consultant and run a firm providing consulting electrical engineering http://www.conwayengineering.com. We almost never specify T5.
How you get the higher operating temperatures is not necessarily by warm environment, an enclosed fixture can accomplish the same thing. But this is not what we are talking about in a woodshop!
Payback is simple if you go to http://www.advancetransformer.com/ under 'products' you can compare the ballast input watts of magnetic versus electronic, add to this your hours of use and cost per kWh from your electric bill. Alternatively read the labels on what ballasts are available to you and multiply the input milli amps by volts and compare. My woodshop gets used only 4-16 hours a week so payback is poor, but the anticipated positive impact on the environment is a consideration too. You also generally pay for what you get, cheap electronic ballasts can be noisy and start poorly just as cheap magnetic one can.
If you have low color quality fluorescent lamps in your shop the best bet may simply be to relamp with 4100'K 85CRI or better lamps.
In selecting light sources one thing to look for is efficacy or lumens per watt. I find fluorescent is generally our best bet especially when you consider upfront cost, but well placed task lighting from good track mounted fixtures can also be very effective as I just read in an adjacent post.
My reference book is the IESNA Lighting Handbook, 9th Edition. I took a quick look on Google "fluorescent lighting guidelines" for guidelines and started to find some. http://www.lithonia.com under 'resources' have some good data on certain applications and energy savings.
Kind regards,
Gary"Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. Begin it now!" -Goethe
I have T-8's in my shop but am not sure what lamps I have in them. I'll catalog your suggestions as to whats best to use when they need replacing. Dan
I believe your fluorescent lights are T8's and not T5's..........
No, they are indeed T5's. You won't see them stocked at Lowe's or Home Depot but you can get them at an electrical shop. They are probably used more in a commercial setting. I think the T8 takes about 35 watts whereas the T5 takes 52 watts so they do give quite a bit more light and yes they are 204 watts per fixture, they do add to the electric bill. I have another set of lights - three 100 watt incandescents that I can turn on if I just want to go in and retrieve something, but when I want to work I turn the T5's on. Oh what a difference!
Edited 6/26/2007 9:19 pm ET by tinkerer2
Edited 6/27/2007 9:11 pm ET by tinkerer2
tinkerer,
I for one am always interested in looking at shops. It seems that every shop offers new ideas. I'm much younger (61) than you but you can't have too much light.
My shop, currently has no windows, something that I will gladly change even if I lose some heat. Right now all I have is flourescent lights and finishing pieces becomes an issue.
Maybe if I didn't look at different shops mine would get finished!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Thanks for the tip-I will try the t-8 or t-5, it sounds like the lower the number the more efficient the light.
"It sounds like the lower number the more efficient the light."
Actually, I think the lower the number, the smaller the diameter of the lighting tube. It seems to work out that the lower the number the more light it gives - at least comparing the T12, T8 and T5's.
Edited 6/27/2007 9:12 pm ET by tinkerer2
Tinkerer: The smaller the tube the closer the arc is to the phosphors. This gives an efficiency bonus. A florescent tube works by running an ultra violet arc between the electrodes (the ends of the tube) and having the inside of the glass tube coated with different phosphors which convert the invisible UV to visible light. The closer the arc is to the phosphors the more lumens per watt or the more light per $ on your electric bill.
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I'm using T8 fluoro's with the 32W daylight bulbs (around 6500K, I believe but don't quote me).
There's a bluish tint to them, but things come out clear. You do have to remember that most lighting has a yellowish tint to it, so things will look different in your shop vs elsewhere.
In the garage (shop), I had roughly 400W of incandescent lighting and it was difficult to see anything clearly. I now have about the same amount of lighting with the T8s and it is unbelievably different. I jokingly call it brighter than daylight when I've got all 3 4-light fixtures turned on.
I've got a similar setup down in the basement, and I'm very happy with the results.
Glen
One other thing to consider when buying your fixtures is that the cheaper two bulb fluorescent fixtures tend to place the bulbs closer together, while the pricier ones have more spread between the bulbs. Besides getting a better ballast with the more expensive fixtures, you'll get a much more even light coverage due to the greater distance between the bulbs.
John,
Have a look at this thread: http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=34690.1
Lataxe
Thanks to all of you. It had not occured to me to paint the walls white. I am going to try the t-8 bulbs-I have good four bulb fixtures but the bulbs are several years old. I appreciate eveyones help.
I second the bouncing light off of white surfaces suggestion. You can also hang white pegboard near your work area to bounce light off of and it doubles as a tool storage solution. The shop clamp on lights are also useful as a source to bounce light off of the peg board. I use a daylight halogen bulb in mine. A direct bulb in my eyes is aggravating, but facing it against a white surface that reflects on my work bench works well. My photography hobby is jumping in here. If you have a roll around clamp rack, that's a good place to mount the clamp on shop light.
Ken
When I wanted to augment my flouresents in the shop, I went on eBay, and for very little money bought a few lots of used track light fixtures (many included bulbs even). For the investment in the track, I now have adjustable, aimable lighting all over my shop. FWIW.
One thing to also consider. Florescent bulbs burn out very slowly and give off less light over time. If you are renting and old space with existing bulbs, who knows when they were last changed. Others have given great advise on the type of bulb, my guess is anything new will beat your suspected old bulbs
You can purchase a retro fit kit for all old fluorescent light fixtures at Grangers. These kits allow you to install the newest forms of lights which will give you a 41 color rating that is much brighter and the best part is these new bulbs that work in the retro kit use a fraction of the current of the old style fixture.
Don't just replace the bulbs, get the retro fit kit, in the long run it will pay for itself in less than a year and give you far better light.
The kit includes a new ballast, bulb holders, and a highly reflective back surface for the fixture.
Good vision is worth a bit of extra work
Moksha
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