We just moved into a new home and I am setting up my dream (two car attached) 21′ x 22′ workshop. As I plan the lighting, I have a problem. I want to use 8′ flurescents, BUT there are two problems.
The first relates to temperature. I am in Washington DC and I want to want to use my garage shop year round. It doesn’t have heat. Yet. Assuming I don’t invest in a dedicated heat system, I’ll need 8′ flurescents that work below 60 degrees (I may tap into the home’s forced air system in the future for the shop, but it may not be enough to keep the shop above 60). Home Depot sells 8′ flurescents for conditions down to -20 degrees, and they cost about $55 (vs. $33 for standard 8′ flurescents). I’m wondering if I should just install recessed cans instead. At 75w each vs. 40w for the 8′ flurescents (I know i’ll need to work out a comparison of the lumen outputs) I know I’ll need a lot more of the cans to achieve adequete lighting. But the incadescent lights have no temperature issues.
Problem #2: if I go with 8′ flurescents (good down to -20 degrees) they are “thicker” than the standard 8′ flurescents. My garage door, when opened, only leaves me 4 1/2″ of space to mount a light. And my garage door covers nearly half my shop ceiling. This strengthens the case for recessed cans as they have zero ceiling clearance issues.
Lastly, in a cost comparison, it seems like a recessed can lighting system is cheaper than an 8′ flurescent lighting system. Any thought on how to approach this?
Replies
Insulate the garage well -- walls and ceiling. If possible, add layers of styrofoam-style panels to the door. Seal around the door as well as you can.
The buy one or two of those oil-filled radiator-style electric space heaters. On cold days when you'll be working in the shop, turn on the heaters a couple of hours before you go out there.
You should have comfort, and no problems with lights.
FWIW, My detached shop is 16 X 24. The walls have 3 1/2 inches of fiberglass, and the ceiling has 8 inches. I have one of those heaters in it. Through the winter, I generally leave it turned on, set to a low setting -- keeps the cans of latex paints from freezing.
Although I'm in North Carolina, 20 degree nights are not uncommon. And that little heater does just fine.
Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.
I highly recommend the the florescents, they give a much more even light. I would also consider adding the cans at locations you know you will want a bit more light, such as over the table saw.
You do not want to tie the shop heating system in to the houses. First it raises code issues, as you are required to have a fire resistant wall between the house and the garage. Second, it will pipe any fumes generated from finishing, and the tiny dust particles throughout the house.
I have a couple of electric heaters in mine right now, and they take the edge off, to the point I can work up a sweat using a plane. I also have a large, (4000 to 4500-BTU), wood stove I use if it is really cold, or I am going to be out there all day using power tools. It is easy to cut firewood here, and I enjoy the time in the woods doing it, so the wood stove works for me.
I'm in a colder climate, so you can probably get by with just the electric heaters depending on what your electric rates are. My rates are about as low as they get, and I still wouldn't want to pay the bill to heat my shop to shirt sleeve temperatures.
Other good options for heat are:
The single unit gas or propane heaters that mount to the ceiling. Northern Tool has a couple of good ones, and your gas company can probably point you in the direction of local companies that sell similar units at a competitive cost. Stay away from "ventless" products, they do produce low levels of carbon-monoxide, and it does build up in your body tissues, at air levels too low to trigger the CO alarms. It will kill your shop parakeet though.
Radiant heat tubes, in either propane or natural gas are the preferred choice of some.
butt,
I used a mess of 4 bulb, 4ft suspended ceiling fixtures that a local electrical supply house was clearancing out due to cosmetic damage. My detached garage is 24 x 24 and not insulated at all and they work fine year round, also in the DC area. I am pretty sure they are less than 4" thick.
Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md
I have a single car attached, reasonably well-insulated to 1960s standards, with parged walls and ceiling. I've added an insulation blanket to the door, though a styrofoam door would be easier to keep clean. I live in Ontario, so colder than your area. I use an oil-filled 1500w electric heater with 2 switches, one for 600w and one for 900w. I leave the heater on permanently in winter, and usually only need 1 switch on, at a low to medium setting, to keep the heat between 60 and 70 degrees. It's not expensive to run. Even with double the space, one heater should be alright with decent insulation. And they don't have a naked flame or element.
Code here doesn't allow a garage to share forced air heating with the house, but even if it did I wouldn't do it. There might be insurance issues, and the health risks aren't worth it.
Because I could maintain the heat, I just installed conventional cheap 8 footers, and they've always started without a problem. In hindsight, though, I'd have been better installing the cold-start version. They make less noise, and you can get higher wattage tubes for them. I would add some side lighting. Overhead tubes give good general light, but it's almost impossible to see for example scratches or imperfections in a piece you're working on without side light. Even if you're lucky enough to have a good window, it's not always going to be full daylight.
Jim
I have four-foot fluorescent fixtures in my shop and have come to hate the noise created by the ballasts. When the machines are shut off, the shop is still not quiet. Wish I'd insisted on recessed cans.
Buttchin,
I recently installed several of the 8 ft. flourescents from HD that you are referring to. You may need to check the wattage again on what you were looking at. The particular 2 bulb, 8 foot flourescent with the cold weather ballast will use 2 bulbs at 110 watts each. HD has the larger wattage bulbs in stock for that fixture also. They do not cost much more than the lower wattage bulbs.
The 8 foot flourescent lights do illuminate much more even. They are not as affected by cold weather as other flourescents. They bulbs will also last longer than the regular light bulbs.
I much prefer fluorescent fixtures for even light distribution. My shop is about 20' X 40' and I have seven, 2 bulb, 8' fixtures centered on the width and at every 5' or 6' along the length. That may sound excessive, but I like it. An important thing to remember about fluorescents, however, is their light spectrum (compared with sunlight). So called cool white bulbs give a cold light on the blue side while warm white bulbs are softer and on the yellow side. The more you spend, the closer to sunlight you can get. I'm satisfied with warm white, at about $8 per bulb, and if you suffer from "winter depression" as I do, they're well worth it.
Reading through posts #8, IMHO use the fluorescents but stick with 4 footers. Easier to handle and can be placed in more places. Noise is not a problem if you stick with electronic ballasts and the newer T8 bulbs. Mine work OK and my shop is not heated when I first enter and the lights come on fine.
I also live in the DC area with a shop just about the same size. I insulated it, walls, ceiling and doors. For heat I have an electric forced air shop heater of 3000 watts (I think).
Without the heater the shop never gets below 50 degrees.
For lights I use 4 two bulb 4’ T-8 fixtures and T-8 bulbs they put out plenty of light. They are closer to the ceiling than the 8 footers and has been mentioned you can mount them in more places
If you not far from the Waldorf area you’re welcome to come over and have a look.
My email is lindo745(at)yahoo(dot)com.Oh, and if you ever need any engine work done go see MrBill (7 posts up).
His shop does real premo work.
Edited 1/14/2008 9:18 pm ET by KRiley
I live in Maine and still in the process of setting up shop in a 24' x 60' building. No insulation in the ceiling, I believe the walls are though. I bought the 4' electronic ballast lights from HD at $8.97 each, plus the t-8 bulbs. I have not had a problem yet with turning on the lights with the shop unheated. I still have a couple older standard ballast lights as well that I installed after I moved. They even light up but will flicker some until they warm up. The electronic ones are full bright almost instantaly.
The previous owner had 2 rows of regular light sockets every 8ft. When I first moved in I installed 23w (100w equalivelant) CFL's in the 2 rows. This was ok at first. But when I started adding the 4' lights. It was like night and day, no pun intended.
Two years ago I put in 8 T-5 HO 4' (actually 46") fixtures with 4100K bulbs. The T-5 bulbs are 5/8" diameter and will be the standard a few years from now just as T-8 are becoming the current standards. Several dollars more but I love them. I have a 2 car garage as my shop (insulated, electric heater. ) As I get older I enjoy the additional light. They are arranged with 2 fixtures over my main work bench at the end wall on 1 light switch. A second light switch turns on the other 6 (arranged in 3 rows across). I put pull cord switches on 4 of those 6 fixtures. Bottom line is that I can control my lighting level to 1,2,4,6,8 fixtures with two wall switches (and the help of the pull cord switches) and turn it all off with the 2 wall switches. I normally use 4 fixtures but can have lots more for the days when brightness counts.
Edited 1/17/2008 8:46 am ET by DougAA
Edited 1/17/2008 10:52 am ET by DougAA
I just installed this winter the 4' low-temp lights from HD and they work very nicely. So far the coldest I've started them here in New Hampshire was about 10F and they popped right on, full bright, with no noise, humming or clicking at all.For shop work, the shadow-free bright light from fluorescents makes them the hands-down winner.As for clearance, I don't know about the 8' units, but the 4' units are only 3 1/4 inches thick, so it sounds like you have clearance. Remove the reflectors and you're down to 3". And you could always recess them, if necessary.
Here's a photo of the 4' lights in my shop. I only lit 1/2 of the shop and these lights were just turned on. my ballasts do not hum. 4'-T8 are the way to go. BTW... it is 10 degrees outside when I took the picture. The far light is a "daylight" or "cool white", while the closer lights are warm. I like the warm much better and once the cool ones burn out I will replace them with warm ones. During my last project, the cool white made my white oak look a lot more yellowish than it really was when I put them inside the house. it scare me at 1st! but once I realized that it was the cool white T8 color rendering, I was relieved. I bought the fixture at HD for around $80. As you can see, they are less than 4.5" in thickness.
http://picasaweb.google.com/Eric.Kozubal/WorkShopPhotos/photo#5156465837776765730
I just finished building my shop and ended up using 8' T8 four lamp tandems. They cost more than the T12's do, but start at temperatures as low as 0F. Also their output does not decrease with age and they last for 20K hours, not 12K. TacomaRich
I just want to chime in on the "tapping into the house's forced air heating system" statment.
I work in the utility industry and I have seen what this can do!!! First of all, while forcing warm air from your furnace into the garage may seem like a great idea, you are removing air from your home which can, and most likely will if your house is insulated and sealed up well, create a negative air pressure situation causing the exhaust products of your furnace to come back down the chimney and into the fresh air of the house. After a while, this will create a deadly concoction of carbon monoxide in the atmosphere. Secondly, as stated in some of the other reply's, this is against fire code as well as defies the International Building Code for sufficient amounts of return air to output air.
For your and your families safety, talk to your local utility about a seperate gas heater or utilize the electric heaters as suggested by others.
All -
Incandescent lights run cooler and the ballasts are noisy, but also consider the last time you saw those style lights in a living or dining room?
The fact is, when you are building and finishing furniture for home use, it makes more sense to have candescent lighting, a warmer much more realistic representation of the final resting place for your finished pieces. Recessed lighting will work in your application, but I would substitute 90 watt halogen bulbs vs regular candescent ones. They do run warmer (hot), but they also are brighter and give out the equivalent of a standard 100 watt light bulb at 90 watt usage. Also, don't skimp on the number of cans you put in. Because their recessed, you won't get a wide distribution of light that you would otherwise experience with a bulb or hanging light fixture, even if you elect the wider "flood" light vs. "spot" light application bulbs, so you will need many more. One more tip, put three directly over your table saw and work bench if possible. I have two eighteen inches apart split by the line directly over my SawStop cabinet table saw blade with the third centered over the right side support table. For my workbench, the three are spaced evenly across. I now wish I had four there. FYI, its tough when you get older :)
Pertaining to heating, all of the readers comments are good ones, I prefer a dedicated corner ceiling mounted heater either forced air gas or electric would work better in getting your shop to temperature quickly and maintaining temperature more consistently.
From a safety standpoint, mounting the heater on the ceiling or there are neat units that fit right between between the studs on the wall for a nice finished built-in look.
Hope that helps.
PS - http://www.grainger.com is a good place to get ideas and take a look at heating options, and if you have a physical location, better yet.
Jeff
You mean fluorescent not incandescent right. Incandescent are the lights in the living room. Fluorescent are what most of us are talking about here.
In T-8 and T-5 fluorescent bulbs you can get them in 6000 deg. That’s sunlight.
I have 4100 deg T-8s in my shop and the color is fine for doing furniture finishing. The next time I buy tubes I’m getting 6000 deg.PS they have electronic ballasts and make no noise at all.
Edited 1/18/2008 10:58 am ET by KRiley
"...but also consider the last time you saw those style lights [fluorescent] in a living or dining room..."
About five minutes ago--I use CFLs in every fixture that can hold them.
-Steve
Hey Chafer
Thanks for the observation and good point. However, the consensus was four or eight foot tubes and recessed candescent vs., energy saving incandescents I believe your referring to.
ThreeRiverstool,
Energy saving CFLs are not incandescent bulbs they are fluorescent. I have them all over my house.
I've never heard incandescent lights referred to as candescent lights.
Edited 1/18/2008 12:49 pm ET by KRiley
Recessed canister lights in a shop do not strike me as a great idea. They do not throw a very wide beam of light, so you'd have to use a lot of them to illuminate an area evenly, which is what most of us in our shops are seeking.
Also, the more holes you put in your ceiling the more heat will leak out of your shop. This is a very common problem with recessed canister lights - they are, in fact, in many homes, one of the chief factors in ice dam formation on the eaves of a house during the winter. If other threads in this forum are any indication, we're all seeking to grasp onto every little BTU of heat in our shops, so putting holes in your ceiling is not recommended if that is your goal as well.
If you do decide to go with recessed lighting, make sure you buy ICAT (insulation contact, airtight) rated ones. They're more expensive than the leakier types, but you'll suffer less of an energy penalty.
All in all, fluorescent's really are the way to go. You can purchase bulbs in several color spectrums, they're efficient to run, they spread light well. That's my $0.03...
Zolton
* Some people say I have a problem because I drink hydraulic brake fluid. But I can stop any time I want.
I installed 6 new can lights in the kitchen about 4 months ago. While in HD several weeks ago I noticed they sell CFL can lights now. They also have them that works with dimmers now as well. One of the reasons I was against can lights were they would not look that well with std CFL's in them. Like some others. If I can put a CFL in the socket, the light has one. I took out the std CFL's and put in the R-30 CFL bulbs and the appearance is much better. Only thing I noticed is they need to warm up some before putting out full light. The dimmer ones work great (in 2 of the cans that are on a dimmer).
So if you wanted some direct light over certain areas. Can lights can now be used without spinning that electric meter faster.
I know this thread is a little dated ... but since then, FWW has put out its' "Workshop Solutions" issue, and I think the lighting article in it was just a bit dated.
Simply put, take everything you think you know about fluorescent lighting, and forget it. The 'conventional wisdom' is simply wrong.
The 'standard' bulb is now the skinnier T-8 (described earlier). With these bulbs, "8 ft." fixtures are really a pair of 4 ft. fixtures bolted together. These fixtures give off more light, a much better light, and for far less power than past lights. They also work much better in cold situations.
Why? The ballast. Rather than 'flickering' 60 times a second, the electronic ballasts 'blink' thousands of times a second. Being electronic, there is no ballast 'hum.'
Bulbs are available in a number of 'colors,' or temperatures. The higher the number, the better. I'd get at least "full spectrum," or 5000K bulbs. Better yet is "true daylight," which is somewhere over 7000K.
Later, I'll post about lighting styles .... the best lights are not good if you use them wrong!
From the previous post, you might get the idea that I like fluorescent strip lights. I do. It's just that there's never a perfect product that addresses every use. So, I'd like to review the ways you use light. I see three different, basic, ways we use light. We use light for decoration, for overall lighting, and for specific tasks. Once you have the lights chosen, then you need to control them. Your usual shop probably doesn't use much light for decoration- and why should it? If you want to back-light your tool rack, or hang a beer sign, by all means do so ... but you don't HAVE to have those things. Overall lighting is what makes the place look welcoming, and -for the most part - lets you see what you're doing. This is where to fluorescent light strips excel. When you recess the lights - as in an office ceiling - they don't do as well, but the trade-off is that they're a lot harder to hit with a board. When the fixtures are mounted on (not 'in') the ceiling, and have some provision for light to go 'up' and 'out' as well as 'down,' your lighting is much 'softer' and shadow free. This is because some of the light is indirect - it bounces off the ceiling before it comes down. Don't take that reflected light out of the equation. There are few things more annoying than to have your work light be blocked by your own shadow. That's where the third type - task lighting - comes in. Some jobs call for very bright, shadow free light. For example, you want lots of light right on the table saw. Here a recessed light does well ... you can place it right over the table, and nearly all the light goes straight down.
I suggest you buy one specifically made for fluorescent bulbs; ordinary ones do not have the depth you need for one of those spiral CFL's to be completely inside the 'can.'
Another example of 'task lighting' is to purchase receptacles and switches with 'pilot lights' in them. These tiny lights often make it a lot easier to find them. Now .. to control the lights ... There are arguments in favor of using the breakers, placing switches by doors, placing switches by the light itself, and for automatic control. At least one light, centrally located, ought to be controlled by a switch at every door. It's amazing how often you just 'pass through' the shop.
General shop lighting is also usually better controlled when it's broken up onto two or more switches. You can lay it out so that the switches light different areas, or that the entire shop has two levels of light ... think 'all bright' and 'half bright.' Task lighting - such as that light right over the table saw - are best controlled at the saw. You don't need a 'normal' switch getting in the way, though ... ever think of placing a motion sensor on the ceiling over where you stand? Or, if you're using a starter for the tool, the starter can switch the light whenever the tool starts. Besides motion sensors, I'm sure there are situations where timers and photocells can be handy. However you 'automatically' control lights, I'd still have a 'make sure it's off' switch. Finally - though it's not 'light switch,' I'd consider having a switch to turn off all the shops' receptacles.
Thanks for the feedback. Since I posted that thread I’ve completed my electrical install and lighting. My workshop is about 500 sq ft and I installed 6 T8 light fixtures (12 bulbs total). The output is more than adequate for my shop—in fact, my wife wears sunglasses when she comes in my shop. She has a point, it is a bit bright, but I have the lights on separate switches so I can only use what I need. But on dim days or at night I have no issues with shadows.<!----><!----><!---->
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My only complaint is the ballasts create a magnetic field that screws up my radio reception. I’m planning on installing an external antenna to fix that, but haven’t gotten around to that yet. Maybe somebody has advice on how to improve radio reception without installing an external antenna?<!----><!---->
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"True" daylight is not a term I am familiar with. Daylight is 5500-5600K. This is considered white light. I have never seen a 7000K fluorescent tube. Are they available?Greg
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The higher temp bulbs do exist; you may need to visit a specialty bulb house to find them. I also tend to think of the bulbs you mention as "daylight;" those are the temps so described at the 'box stores.' It was at such a specialty store where I was made aware of the 'difference.' All I can say is that there sure have been improvements in lighting these past few years!
You are correct that technology is advancing in every area of our lives. I had to go to specialty lighting to get daylight "fluorescent" tubes. Our local orange or blue box stores do not carry them. Are you using 7000K Lights? What difference do you see with them? I would think that the color of wood and finishes would look so different once a piece is placed in a home.Greg
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I am not using the newer lights; "full spectrum" with a temp of around 5000K is plenty good for my uses.
5600 to 6000 K is considered full balanced daylight by ANSI standards. 7000K is going heavy into the blue area. More to the "Grow" light area. Kelvin Daylight is what most people in industry (graphic designers, photographers, paint manufactures, commercial printers etc.) use when judging color. Until most homes go to a daylight standard, most buyers live under a more yellow-red tungsten and even the new CFLs unless specifically labeled daylight are "warm" light.
Don't confuse color temp (K kelvin) with brightness. The CRI is just as important for working in a shop and for viewing work.BB
These are 5900 K and the CRI is 96. Sunlight is 100 CRI
T-8 is old technology. T-5 is the new thing. T-5 high output is even brighter. Dimmable ballasts are availble at extra cost. Not cheap but I know of an architect who's got a sensor that adjusts the the office light in conjuntion with the amount of sunlight to keep it evenly balanced.
http://www.fullspectrumsolutions.com/industrial_high_bay_lighting.htm
There's other sources but I bought one of these to try in our shop and it's extremely bright.
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