I am thinking of installing a wood burning stove in my new workshop. The stove I am looking at burns, multi fuels including all types of wood and sawdust, the fuel therefore would be free and save me the journey of carting all my scrap wood and sawdust down the local tip.
My problem is, I have no knowledge of how to run the pipe work and how safe it would be when installed. My plan is to run 4″ galvanised single skin pipe work from the back of the stove, directly through 6″ block-work to the outside. Then one ninety degree angle, followed by eight foot of straight single skin and topped with a bird cowl.
The workshop is single story with a tiled pitched roof, the clearance above the the gutter would be three foot and the pipe work would be held by brackets 7″ away from the rendered wall.
Your comments and advise would be very welcome, but I am running well over budget on the workshop, so I have to keep the cost down as much as possible, but still ensure the system is safe.
Cheers Gerry
Replies
Hello Jerry,
This may prove to be more involved that it appears. There is a published standard known as NFPA 211 titled "Chimneys, Fireplaces, Vents, and Solid Fuel Burning Appliances". This document sets the standards for all types of solid fuel appliance installations.
When I tried to do the same thing in my shop (hobby based,not professional) my insurance company had a coronary. In fact, they gave me 7 days to remove my stove or be faced with cancellation of my homeowners policy. Subsequent calls to five other insurance companies recieved the same response. End result...it's October in PA and I don't have heat in my shop as yet.
My advice would be to begin with your insurance representative. The last thing you want is to have an unfortunate event in your shop and then be denied insurance coverage.
Good Luck
Bill B
P.S. If you find a good solution, please post your results. Maybe I can use what you learn to help solve my problem.
Bill, BAD NEWS is never easy to swallow, but thanks for letting me know. It looks like we are both need to wrap up this winter. Another one of my bright idea's shot down in flames, but I will take your advise before I go any further. No point in adding unnecessary cost to a over stretched budget. If I find the answer I will let you know
Don't give up too quick Gerry. Insurace guys are, in my experience a bit slippery. While what I got was their corporate line, reading between the lines it may have something to do with the fact that I have two overhead doors on my shop. Since those doors mean I could get cars inside, and those cars could leak fuel, and that fuel could find the woodstove...you get the idea.
I also got the impression that if my shop were in the basement (without garage doors) it may have been o.k.
I didn't gather where you are from, but in my area of Pennsylvania, I would estimate 8 out of 10 garages have the same stovepipe sticking through the walls that you described.
I haven't decided if I will knuckle under to their pressure or take my chances.
My preference would be a pellet stove, as they now have designs that bring combustion air in from the outside and discharge their exhaust throught the wall. That, in effect, is exactly what a closed combustion propane or natural gas furnace does which the insurance company told me was fine with them.
Maybe we should start a support group for those without heat in their shops.
Regards,
Bill B.
I have a wood stove in my shop as well as a forced hot air furnace ( oil fired so guess which gets used most!!). My shop is on my property but a seperate building from my house. my Insurance guy has a coronary about the fact that my deck (6" off the ground mostly) has no railing....They have said absolutely nothing about the wood stoveWicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
Thanks for your comments, my insurance company showed about the same interest, so despite all the politics I am going ahead with my plans to put in a wood burner.
My problem now, is that I have spent so much time reading all the posts, on the reasons why, I should or should not proceed with my original plans, I have missed the opportunity to order this side of Christmas. ( He who hesitates)
However its been and interesting debate, Long may it continue.
EVERY MAN MUST HAVE A SHED
Gerry
preferably one with heatWicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
Gerry,
Please tell me who your insurance carrier is. I'd be willing to change insurance providers if they will allow a wood stove in my shop. I am anal when it comes to fire safety (31 years in the fire department has taught me a few things) but I like the idea of a shop heated with wood or coal. There's nothing like being in the shop on a winter morning with a fire in the stove, a hot cup of coffee and a project that is really going well. I might even have Norm on the TV above my bench.
Regards,
BillB
Sounds good, I have just run the T.V. cable and the Hi Fi cable's went in with the electrics. The coffee pots purchased and ready go on top of the wood burning stove. All of Norms C.D. loaded. Just right for the perfect retirement workshop.
The insurance company is ZURICH fairly big, this side of the pond. Please note: Private Workshop, no double doors , no vehicles, block built with tiled roof, bricked area around stove and fire board to ceiling and tile flashing. Small spray booth and chemical store about twenty foot from w/ shop ( not insured ) But as all my chemical are stored there this may help. Hope this helps you but don't quote me, my insurance policy is safely stored away and that's exactly the way I would like to keep it.
I now have the stove, but I am at least six weeks behind on the total workshop project so the stove will have to remain in its box a little longer, together with its twin walled stainless steel stove pipe. In my mind, I still think I am twenty one, but my body reminds me daily that I am not. So with luck that pot may go on the stove in January if not sooner.
Be safe and good luck with your dream.
Regards Gerry
So old I remember that I and my brother did that along the RR tracks to heat the house~~~~
"My problem now, is that I have spent so much time reading all the posts, on the reasons why, I should or should not proceed with my original plans, I have missed the opportunity to order this side of Christmas. ( He who hesitates)"
Gerry - At least in the NC area, woodstoves regularly make it into the newspaper's classifieds or on Craig's list, and they typically sell for about 1/3d the price of a new one. There's little that can go wrong with a woodstove other than the seals and the surface finish (they rust), and the seals are made up of 1/4" glass fiber rope pressed into the grooves in the cast iron; the finish is easy to renew with a bit of surface prep with a wire brush and some stove black. I replace the seals on mine on about an every 5 year basis, and it takes about 30 minutes and about $8 (for a coil of glass fiber rope). Renewing the finish takes less than 5 minutes, and the bottle of stove black is about $5.
It might be worth checking into a used one, particularly if you're considering a high-end one like a Vermont Castings.
Forestgirl suggested Craig's list which I tried, but the cost of shipping to the U.K. made it far too expensive. However I have managed to obtain a cancelled unit which I have just received so my search is now over.
Many Thanks for your help and advise on wood work stoves.
Regards Gerry
Gerry,I'm very glad to hear you have your stove and are all set to enjoy the winter in your workshop. The ground is covered with snow here and I've had my stove going. Remember to try baking an apple pie on your stove! You can pick up a small camping stove at your sporting goods store that will sit on top of your woodburning stove. Insert pie and enjoy the smells while woodworking. You'll think your in heaven! Good luck and have fun.JF4
The smells of sawdust and apple pie baking! Thats just cruel. I don't think it would be quite the same on my diesel salamander.
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
This is what you want to bake things over a surface heat source (like a woodburning stove or a camp stove):
http://www.bakepacker.com/
I've two of them - the large and small sizes, and have used them on many backpacking trips (and on the woodstove), including baking bread on the top of a 13,000 foot mountain in the Rockies. It takes a little practice, but once you get the hang of it, it makes superb baked goods and desserts, and it beats freeze-dried food all to heck. My opinion of that stuff is that you're better off with a bit of corrugated cardboard and some jelly.
dkellernc,The bakepacker looks like a great idea. I've never used those. I'll have to try it. I use the Coleman camp oven. Check out this link. http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0006534510725a&type=product&cmCat=SEARCHFEAT_all-perf&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&QueryText=camp+oven+coleman&Ntk=Products&Nty=1&cm_cat=Google&Ntt=camp+oven+coleman&noImage=0&cm_ven=performics&_requestid=78996&Ntx=mode+matchall&cm_pla=search_search_camp&N=0&cm_ite=camp%20oven%20coleman&rid=0180101070502&cmCat=perfIt's perfect for making baked goods as well, and stores flat, which is great for packing into the mountains. Makes great baked goods in the workshop too! You can just set it on top of your woodstove. Cinnamon rolls work great in this. Woodworking, cinnamon rolls baking on your woodstove, hot cuppa Joe, and The New Yankee Workshop on TV. Could anyone ask for more?! :)JF4
JF4- I've hane and have used the coleman version as well. For a dedicated oven, it's easier to use than the bakepacker. However, it's a pain in the arse to put into a backpack (too many long lengths of sheet metal to get bent), and because it can only be used as an oven and weighs in at over half a pound, it doesn't go on backpacking trips. I learned my lesson on week-long trips to Rocky Mountain National Park - weigh everything that goes into your pack. It is, however, really convenient on truck camping trips (those are the ones where a trolling motor battery, a DC-to-AC converter, and a small TV goes in with the gear. I'm not so into the great outdoors that I'm above watching a college football game in the woods!.
One cool thing about the bakepacker is that the bottom is simply a teflon coated frying pan, so I take the bakepacker along and a teflon-coated aluminum pot as the entire cook kit (along with a plastic insulated mug, of course - it'd kinda suck to dring hot coffee out of an aluminum pot). The heat spreader that comes with the bakepacker is useful for another duty as well - cooking anything slowly on one of MSG's blast-jet stoves isn't easy, and the burner's small enough that a frying pan tends to have a spot in the middle that's red-hot, and the outsides of the pan are cold, so constant stirring is required. If I take the wire support off of the backpacker's heat spreader, the steel plate makes a perfect heat distribution device for said frypan.
By the way - To anyone with a wood-burning stove, I highly recommend one of the Caframo Eco-Fans:
http://www.caframo.com/hearth/hearth_products_woodstove.php
Besides being a really neat toy, it really improves the heat throw-off from a woodburning stove, and no electricity is required.
dkellernc,I know what you mean about weighing everything before going on a backpacking trip into the mountains. I made the mistake of not doing that before, and packed all kinds of canned goods, etc. I practically brought a grocery store with me. I paid for it every step of the way. However once I made it to camp I was in fat city. Other people I was camping with were drooling, watching me eat my fancey dishes. The last couple days I had to start giving food away. There was no way I was going to backpack out with a heavy load again. Most of the trips I've been on have been canoe trips into the mountains, which makes carrying in supplies easier.I like the idea of the eco-fans. I'll have to price one for my woodstove. JF4
"Other people I was camping with were drooling, watching me eat my fancey dishes. The last couple days I had to start giving food away. There was no way I was going to backpack out with a heavy load again."
You know, in nearly 35 years of camping/backpacking, I've never, ever run out of food. I've run out of nearly everything else on one trip or another - stove fuel, water (had to boil it, see the first thing on the list that I ran out of!), fresh socks, paper towels, etc..., but never food. Seems like a basic survival instinct, so my friends and I have just resigned ourselves to buring the leftovers in the morning fire on the pack-out day. One of these days, we're going to run into one of those "I survived..." situations and be very regretful of that last morning campfire!
By the way -regarding the Caframo eco-fan, they're pricey, especially compared to the plastic plug-in variety made with slave labor and found in the local Wally mart. However, if I can judge from just one example, they seem to be very well made. Mines made it through continuous duty on top of a 400-700 degree stove top for 5 years or so, and that's not bad for any manufactured item.
"have not ever,ever run out of food."
I haven't done much back packing but I do remember this one time, on a fishing trip in the wilderness area in Wyoming, when all we had was this can of something. It was not good at all. Finally poured it out and walked out over ten miles on an empty stomach.
Wow - that must've been a can of Spam. That's about what it'd take for me to hike 10 miles on an empty stomach with a full backpack!
My biggest incident out of something like 40-50 trips was forgetting to pack the butter. On this trip, we had not yet figured out that freeze-dried food was some sort of medieval torture device re-packaged in modern mylar, so that's all we had. We had a superb day of fishing in a trout stream in the rockies, and had some nice fillets, and absolutely no grease or fat of any kind to cook them in.
What we finally found by ransacking everyone's supplies was 2 fast-food little packages of lemon juice, so we boiled the trout in water, salt, and the lemon juice. Best fish I ever ate. ;-)
Nope, it was some kind of soup. I hope I never see that soup again! I could have eaten a whole can of spam plus a horse's hind quarter too
Those trout really taste good up in the mountains after a good workout walking. Where do you fish? We were in the wilderness area near Boulder. Wyoming.
Edited 11/22/2008 9:54 pm ET by Tinkerer3
"Those trout really taste good up in the mountains after a good workout walking. Where do you fish? We were in the wilderness area near Boulder. Wyoming."
I live in North Carolina, so most of my fishing is saltwater in one of the premier spots for surf-fishing in the world - Cape Hatteras National Seashore. I feel pretty lucky to have it within a 3-1/2 hour drive.
I've made several trips to RMNP, mostly on week-long backpacking trips. The particular incident I was referring to was along Cache La Poudre creek well inside the park. Funny thing is that those creeks that are at least 5 miles into the park are absolutely full of hungry trout - I think I could've caught my limit fishing with a bare paper clip. On the park boundaries and outside the park, the fishing is very, very slow. I get the feeling that the reason is that most people aren't willing to go more than a few hundred yards from their car to fish.
Another thought I had to share about woodstoves. They are great to give an antique looking finish to metal parts. I built a hanging candle lantern, which had a metal base for the candle. The base was cut out of sheet metal and looked to new and shiney. So I buried the part in the coals in my woodstove and left it there for a while. It gave a great old look to the part.
I am truly amazed, my first ever post in Fine woodworking .com has reached almost a hundred returned or related postings. The response to my original WORKSHOP STOVES has been so interesting and varied, I have spent many an hour reading through everyone of them.
Although I cannot agreed with every posting, I have agreed with most of them. We all have our own opinion's and I have always enjoyed a good debate, especially if it helps to improve the world we all live in.
I have deliberately stayed away from the politics on the workshop stove debate, simply to hear as many view's from all of you as possible and that in it's self has been most rewarding. I again thank all of you for your views and advise over the last few weeks.
This is not the NORM for me, I am already planning a third small shed, THE OFFICE. This will house last year's computer and whilst, her in door's, thinks I am beavering away on the latest grandchild's rocking horse. I will in fact, be posting my views on saving the last of the Siberia asexual sand-worms, there demise a direct result of oil filled radiators in woodwork shops across the globe.
On a more serious note I truly believe that, if a few of you had time to put down your tools and take posts in government this small planet of ours would be, not only a better place for us selfish humans to live in but a far better place for the rest of God's creatures and creations.
I can't sign of, without mentioning the humour, the childhood dreams, of smells and inner warmth, whilst looking through frosted window's at a lonely Robbin sitting on a frozen twig, with a backdrop of snow filled trees and meadows.
I can picture it now, the wood crackling in the stove, the pot of fresh coffee at the front of the cooking grid, the camping oven to the rear, complete with the apple pie slowly baking away. The T.V. showing all of the fine woodworking video's, then a repeat of all NORMS C.D. without adverts, even the one's when he was still but a young lad and still had his own teeth.
WAKE UP GERRY, YOU HAVE NOT SPENT THE LAST FOUR MONTHS BUILDING THIS WORKSHOP SINGLE HANDED, PLUS A LARGE PROPORTION OF YOUR LIFE'S SAVINGS TO SIT ON YOUR "A" WAITING FOR YOUR COFFEE POT TO BOIL AND A BLOODY APPLE PIE TO BAKE. GET ON WITH IT MAN, STOP DREAMING YOU HAVE NOT EVEN FINISHED IT YET AND THE SNOW'S FORECAST THIS WEEKEND.
Such is life without a care, we have no time to stand a stare, No time to watch, when woods we pass where squirrels hide their nuts in grass.
All the best to all of you
Regards Gerry
EVERY MAN MUST HAVE A SHED
Gerry,You inform us at this late date:"I will in fact, be posting my views on saving the last of the Siberia asexual sand-worms, there demise a direct result of oil filled radiators in woodwork shops across the globe".I immediately consigned my oil-filled radiator to the land-fill. Then I pulled it out again as this would have affected the local 3-beaked kittiwake population (they evolved near Heysham nuclear power station, just across the woods from here).Perhaps the oil-filled item can become a nice garden hornament with ivy on? No, it lacks the necessary rural aesthetic.So....it's back in the shed keeping the tools all warm, dry, cosy and rust-free, 24 hours a day.*****Meanwhile I'm off to find fireboard, the last part necessary before assembling the wood & sawdust-burner in the ladywife's shed (I mean gracious shingle-topped cedar garden-palace). I shall let you know how it does in due course, assuming the sawdust-burning doesn't result in a massive explosion in which I meet my demise and utterly disassemble the lovely wooden palace.Lataxe, a potential arsonistPS You are right about men & sheds. Male persons without one are only half a man and likely to wear perfume or a bouffant hairstyle, or such is my prejudice (I mean carefully weighed opinion based on reams of evidence).
Fire boards next for me too, just about to take out second mortgage.
It will be interesting to see which one of us fires up first, which one of us burns the pie, but not as you suggested who burns down the summer hooses or the workshop first, I am more concern about that, than the demise of the Siberian asexual sand worms.
The death of a few million worms could not be compare to the loss of my retirement Wickford Woodworking Shop.
Wishing you every success with your project, let me know how you get on.
Gerry
EVERY MAN MUST HAVE A SHED
Gerry,
Thank you for introducing me to William Henry Davies, with your tantalizing snippet of his verse. I'm off to the library.
By way of thanks, are you acquainted with Robert Service?
Ray
Ray,
William Henry Davies, thank you, since writing my last post I have been racking my brain trying to remember the poets name.
Learnt at school, forty seven years ago his words impressed me then, but even more so now in the hectic world we now live in. Therefore the snippet of verse was from memory only and is probably not word for word. No doubt you will let me know once you have been to the library.
Please tell me more about Robert Service, does he write in a similar style, are is words as powerful.
Just for fun one last stab.
No time to stand beneath the bough, to stare for long at sheep or cow.
gerry
Every man must have a shed ( GERRYNOCAB 2008)
Hello Gerry,
Your quote was close enough that it immediately yielded his name on Google!
Robert Service is best known for his doggeral (so-called by some) written about his travels in the far north Yukon and Alaska during the gold rush. His name popped in my mind while reading a Googled short biography of Davies; it seems they could have been acquaintances. If you Google "The Cremation of Sam McGee" (a favorite for Scoutmasters to memorise and recite around the campfire) or "The Face on the Barroom Floor" those are a pair of Service's best known pieces. Others whose lives seem to have followed the same track-world travels, followed by writings- as Davies, William Henry Dana (Two Years Before the Mast) and Jack London (Call of the Wild, numerous novels and short stories).
On reflection, I wonder if another Robert--Frost's "Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening" mightn't be more kindred to the mood induced by Mr Davies' "Leisure":
Stopping By Woods On A Snowy Evening
Whose woods these are I think I know.His house is in the village though;He will not see me stopping hereTo watch his woods fill up with snow.My little horse must think it queerTo stop without a farmhouse nearBetween the woods and frozen lakeThe darkest evening of the year.He gives his harness bells a shakeTo ask if there is some mistake.The only other sound's the sweepOf easy wind and downy flake.The woods are lovely, dark and deep.But I have promises to keep,And miles to go before I sleep,And miles to go before I sleep.
So far my search of the catalog of the local library for Mr Davies has been fruitless. I will send the wife on a quest this week; she works at a local university, and I am hopeful that their library will yield a volume of his works, and maybe even his autobigraphy, which sounds like it ought to be quite a read. If not that it will be on to an interlibrary loan.
Ray
Ray,
Maybe, Mr Davies, Mr Frost, you and I, are all kindred spirits. All we have to do, is "stand and stare" and enjoy this wonderful, breath taking planet.
It is something we all should do and takes only a few minutes. Best of all it cost nothing and in a few seconds can bring you from your deepest despair. Staring at woods in summer or snow filled forest in the depth of night, both fantastic memorable uplifting sight's.
I look forward to one of those moments in January 2009, in my minds eye I can see it now. I am looking down my garden, it's midnight and snow covers everything in sight. My new and completed workshop sits at the very end, surrounded by heavily ladened conifers. I am thinking, it looks more like a country cottage than a workshop and blends in with the landscape of my garden perfectly. It's a bitterly cold but still night and the full moon reflects on the crisp white snow. Then that magical moment , something glints on the snow covered tiled roof of the work shop . The Twin walled stainless steel stove pipe is snow free and above it, fine wisps of smoke rise gently into the cold night air.
I was going to add that when I opened my warm cosy workshop the next morning. I was greeted by the smell of freshly baked bread. Which I had placed in the camping oven on top of my stove overnight, but then I thought, your stretching the imagination a little too far.
Moving on a little " THERE'S STRANGE THINGS DONE IN THE MIDNIGHT SUN" it appears these days I can only remember verse and not the person who held the pen, it must be my age.
How apt I thought, Sam McGee, now there's a man who would have loved to sit beside my wood burning stove and as I entered the workshop, he would have said, "PLEASE SHUT THAT DOOR".
All the best Gerry
EVERY MAN SHOULD HAVE A SHED ( now I really must get on with mine)
gerry,
One of my more pleasant memories of being scoutmaster, is that of a backpacking trip we undertook in january. We hit the trailhead just about dark, but wanted to move away from the parking area/overlook before setting up our camp for the nite. So we set off down the trail, which was along the ridge of the mountain. As darkness fell we found we didn't need to use flashlights, for the night was perfectly clear, and a full moon was rising. Its light, reflected off the layer of snow on the ground was plenty enough to see by, so we continued along the trail which tended to the north, guided by the sight through the leafless trees of the big dipper's bucket pointing towards Polaris, the north star. The boys were captured by the magic of the experience and mostly walked in silence, or softly exclaimed from time to time about some sight along the trailside, mainly the sound we heard was the crunching of the snow underfoot. We set up camp about 10:00 pm, after hiking several hours. No-one wanted to stop.
Best regards,
Ray
Exactly and I bet all of the boys remember that night too, a special memory, something to tell their own children and grandchildren in turn.
Gerry
Yeah, if they are like most scouts they will remember it all right. "Yeah I remember that trip I was freezing my butt off and the scoutmaster kept us hiking and hiking and hiking while he staired up at the moon like he was going to turn into a werewolf or something" :)
Doug M
Doug,In Ray's case, he avoided the transmogrification into the wolf (apart from around his fizzog, as anyone may see) and turned into "or something". Science still has not determined what this something is, although it seems to be animated to a remarkable degree. I suspect he has become a hell's angel with the aggression left out.Nevertheless, I would have joined his troupe, if only to interrogate him concerning his woodworking lore. I would draw the line at dibbing or dobbing; and there would certainly be no bob-a-job for me, as I am too lazy and have no need of any badges. However, I like singing around the campfire but tend to get carried away a bit volume-wise, which might attract a mountain lion, if only to re-establish some quiet by biting my throat out.This is the trouble with that scouting and similar woodsy pursuits in the USA - you can become catfood. Over in Blighty the worst that can happen is a hedgehog.Lataxe, who was nearly an air cadet in his youth but didn't care for the discipline.
Lataxe,
You auld cynic, shurely ye ken, that Lord Robert Baden-Powell,(also known as Bathing Towel, or Bakin' Powder), founder of the scouting movement, was a Britisher like yourself. I bet you've worshipped at the altar of Gilwell Park yourself, if you would but admit it.
'Fess up, now!
Ray
Doug,
I take it you were a scout, and not a scoutmaster. Thanks for the good laugh.
Scouts earned their braggin' rights by going camping when the weather is bad. As Andy Pennington used to say about 12-month-a-year camping, "Well..anybody can go camping in BLUEBIRD WEATHER!"
Ray
gerry,
Doug's spot-on comment not-withstanding, my all-time best scouting recollection is of a canoe trip on the Allagash River in Maine. On "Eagle Lake", early one morning we were paddling thru the mist rising off the glass-flat water. Each canoe was out of sight of the others in the group of campers. It was absolutely quiet. The only sound was that of the water dripping off the tips of our paddles as they left the water. The boy that I was sharing the canoe with turned to me and said in a whisper, "It's so quiet, I don't want to make a sound."
Ray
Ray,
You and gerry's stories remind me of many days in Crazy Moon (hunting & fishing camp 13 miles back into the woods) and our summer cottage up on the lake in Canada.
One time while in Crazy Moon in the dead of winter we (Mary and I) experienced a full moon accompanied by a dazzling display of Northern Lights.
It was along about midnight and I decided it was time for a bit of cross country skiing. I went for about 3 miles without any light other than those provided by Mother Nature. It seemed like you could reach out and grab a star right out of the sky; they seemed to be that close.
The snow glistened like there were a kazillion diamonds sprinkled all over the it. Not a sound in the air 'cept for the swooshing of my skis across the snow. An silence that was almost deafening.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
There are very few places in our country where nature can be experienced without the intrusive noise of "civilization". Even in the mtns around here, you hear a jet plane overhead, or the sound of an 18 wheeler on the highway miles away, if not an ATV buzzing three ridges over. Being able to truly get away from it all is magical nowadays. Probably not so special for Mrs Dan'l Boone, who I imagine liked hearing the sound of the axe from the clearing t'other side of the holler.
Ray
Hi Ray,
Yeah I will admit that 'bout a half mile from the camp on the way back the silence was broken by the drone of the groomer comin down the snowmobile trail behind me.
You gotta come up here sometime, it's truly The Great North Woods.
Have a great Thanksgiving,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Thanks Bob,
You too. I'm looking forward to getting some hunting in this weekend.
Ray
Bob,
You'll appreciate this..
My mother grew up in Centre Harbor, on Lake Winnepesaukee. Her parents ran a boat and canoe livery there, and we used to visit them during the summers when I was a boy.
Back in the early 60's the lake was quiet and calm, with hardly any power boats around. My mom and I would take a canoe out to go blueberry picking along the shores of some of the islands around the lake. The low bushes hung out over the water and you could glide up to them in a canoe and pick without having to set foot on land.
One quiet morning we had been out for a couple of hours and were about ready to head back in, but had one more place to visit. The berry bucket was nearly full of the tiny, intensely-flavored berries - the result of a morning's worth of picking.
We came up to some bushes that were higher than normal, and I stood suddenly so I could grab some berries. As I stood, I heard my mother say, "Don't stand up in the...!" And then we were flipped over into the drink, and all those little berries spread out over about an acre of water. I had never seen her so mad..
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Yes, its true we have killed of most of our dangerous animals over here, not that I am proud of this fact, but the crack about the hedgehog is going to far.
While bending over a camp fire, a bite on the butt from a badger is very painful. Also you would not appreciate, while an answering a call of nature in a bush just outside camp ,if it was inhabited by a colony of adders. This could be very serious and not one of your fellow campers would offer to suck out the poison. All you guys over there don't have to worry about Latex Man, you would need your pump action, to survive that encounter.
To conclude, please tell me how you find time to do any of your woodwork projects AND STILL WRITE ALL THESE POSTS
Regards Gerry
EVERY MAN SHOULD HAVE A SHED ( AND A PUMP ACTION IN THE CORNER IF YOU LIVE OVER HERE)
Gerry,
Ahhh, but what would a woodworking day be like without at least a gander or three here on Knots? I of course do cheat a bit now and then - a laptop in the woodshop saves a step or two whilst woodworking and a post in Knots.
Regards,
P.S. Oh, and a little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men.Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I could not agree more and must admit I am hooked already. I cant resist having a wee look and before I know it I am using the keyboard. The wife thinks I am working to hard, if only she knew.
Keep them coming.
Regards Gerry
EVERY MAN SHOULD HAVE A SHED ( in your case I strongly recommend you alarm your perimeter Fence)
Gerry,
The wife thinks I am working to hard, if only she knew.
Oh but you are working (enjoying) very hard. You see there is a strong mental part of woodworking. Not just figgurin out all the cuts, the measurements, the joinery, the assembling of milled parts and finishing. One must gather ideas, nurture the creative juices as they say.
When I'm in Knots my mind is always on the prowl for new ideas, hoping to perhaps help someone who is struggling with something I've experienced. I read the posts inevitably find a nugget of information that helps me.
My woodshop is in chaos at the moment. I just got a new tablesaw (well if you consider 37+ years old as being new. It's new to me anyway!). Tried selling the old one and someone in here suggested keeping it and outfitting it with a dado blade. I understand they're not legal o'er there.
Soooooo, now I'm placing them both facing each other right smack in the middle of the woodshop. Yeah, I'm a Yank, gotta have dueling tablesaws ye know. Betcha John Wayne would be proud...........
On the old saw I'll reposition the home made downdraft table as the right extension table, which will also serve as the outfeed table for the new saw. On the new saw the right extension wing will be a router mounted in a table that will be the outfeed for the old saw. Sounds kind clunky in writing it so will post a pic when done.
Uh, gotta go now. I can smell the beef stew simmering on the woodstove. The apple pie was done a while ago and cousin Mark just arrived with a pound of cheese. Hope the biscuits are ready!
:-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
You should not have mentioned your duelling table saws, Lataxe Man is becoming paranoid about you Yanks, he will probably think its a new weapon you guys have developed when you come over to pop him off. If you email me I give you his address.
He is not a bad fellow really, it's just that I cant understand a word he says, I think he must be Norwegian.
Dado blades not legal over here ? thats news to me, maybe Lataxe can help me on that one. It may apply to industrial shops, but how could that rule affect a private shop.
I too have an old table saw which I intent to fit a dado blade. My shop is not big enough to run it next to my main Tsaw, but I will mount it on wheels and pull it out when I need it. If anyone over here has any info on this I would appreciate hearing from you.
Bob please send pic when you have completed this project, I must admit I have never seen duelling table saws.
You mentioned my childhood hero, John Wayne. I still watch those old film when ever I get the chance, mostly on the T.V. in the workshop. Don't tell anyone else, it shows my age, If ever there was a man I would have loved to meet and share two fingers of red eye with, it was Big John. You Yanks must be real proud of him, after all he almost won WW11 for you single handed.
Regards Gerry
Every man should have a shed ( AND A TABLE SAW FITTED WITH A DADO BLADE)
Gerry,
Not to worry 'bout poppin Mr. Froe (Lataxe). Good heavens, what would Knots be like without him! Of course if I ever make it to Galgate I'd have to hop off the wagon for a night........
Regarding dado blades it may very well only apply to industrial sites, not sure about that but did see mention of something about it here on Knots.
Back in the 70s I used to travel a lot for Wang Laboratories, doing training. My favorite trips were to California three times a year teaching networking computers which was called Telecommunications.
Whenever I went there I planned it so I could teach a class in San Francisco, then Los Angeles and finish in San Diego. The sessions were always 3 days apart so I could drive down the coast on Highway 1.
On one trip I had the good fortune to stay in Carmel. A gentleman walked in and sat down at my table asking, "Where are you from!?" It turned out he was Clint Eastwood, who owned the place, called The Hogsbreath Inn. He sure didn't seem like Dirty Harry to me.......
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,That Gerry likes to court danger. He has been stirring up adder nests and presenting his bum to badgers as a dare. Now he is going to go a-dadoing! Ah ha! he will see a duelling tablesaw then!! Indeed, he may well find hisself down at the infirmary showing his scars. What a good job our nice nurses do not present bills, even for patching up a badger-bit bum. (One must put up with their sniggering, pointing and calling their friends for a look, though).Them cowboys he looks up to used to be on at the cinema Saturday matinees when we were lads. Naturally his unerring ability to do away with bad guys (the dark, hairy, sweaty ones) caused us to worship that drawling bloke with the bad walk. (Marion Somebody, he was called). However, I got over this kind of feeling when I was eight, whereas Gerry has remained in his happy yet naive childhood and has failed to realise it was all in the script. I blame the National Health rosehip syrup or perhaps too much of the malt.Now tell me, was Clint accompanied by that large and personable ape? I liked that ape better than all the cowboys, who seemed bad-tepmpered and without a sense of humour. Also, Clint is much too thin and has a bad haircut, unlike the attractive ape.Lataxe, who cannot watch fillums from Hollywood without guffawing involuntarily at the various postures and stances.
Ah Lataxe,
"guffawing involuntarily at the various postures and stances."
Indeed. And the posturing itself is quite involuntary, as you might be able to see, if you looks in the mirror, quick-like, before those memes intervene.
Ray
Lataxe,
One must put up with their sniggering, pointing and calling their friends for a look, though
Yeha, I kin remember all the sniggerin, pointin and twitterin when I went in for a vasectomy some years ago. Still not sure what they were pointin at?
You'd probably like the nurse I had if ye like apes! Reminded me of the lady in Porkys!
By the by, are you really Norwegian?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,Although I lack Norwegian genes I do believe I have imbibed, when a bairn, any number of their memes, as I am a Geordie and Geordieland is full of ex-Vikings and other misfits that sailed there from Scandinavia o'er the centuries.So, I am very rational until I'm not and then there is a short beserker episode. Also, I enjoy log fires albeit ones confined to a woodburning stove, rather than them campy fires that blokes in bad shorts have. Norwegians are rarely seen in bad shorts, although they have some pretty strange hats, as do I. There I must be a-one.Lataxe, pale of skin but with a dark mind.
Bob,
Over the years, I have driven quite a few thousand miles around California and Highway 1 was always a favourite of mine too, If I had the time, I would push on to Ukiah to visit the red woods. Then back to San Francisco to Fisherman's Wharf to stuff my self to busting point on the most delicious fruit in the world, before catching my flight home. I have stayed in Carmel a few times as well, but never run into Clint, or his ape.
That reminds me ,every time we try to have a sensible conversation about anything, that Lataxe Man has to butt in. What ever is he babbling on about now A- dadoing, is this a word out of one of Ray's Scoutings songs ?. I seem to remember when I was a lad, in the dib dib dob dob Brigade we used to sing a song with a similar sounding word in it. Ray will correct me , if I am wrong but I think the first line was,
I like to go, A-dadoing along the mountain track and as I go I like to sing ........
There's always someone in this world that delights in bursting your bubble, inferring I am naive indeed, the check of this man. I have already written to Santa telling him not to send Lataxe any presents, that will put him in his place.
Hopefully in the future we will be able to continue our discussion in knots without interruption from this Norwegian Summer Hoosey Fellow.
Now back Highway 1, somewhere along that coastal route we used to stop for the most fantastic blueberry pie we have ever tasted. The wife and I cannot remember where it was or the name of the restaurant or inn. Do you have any idea?
Regards Gerry
gerry,
The Happy Wanderer didn't, as I recall,, referred to dadoes at all. Perhaps you are thinking of Harry Belefonte's sojourn in the island prison where he was put to work cutting slots in cabinet ends?
"Dado, day-ay-ay-do! Daylight come, and me want go home!
Hey Mr Routerman, router me some channels.
Daylight come, and etc etc.."
Lataxe truly deserves nought but a lump of coal in his stocking this year. But even that he'd turn to his advantage, burning it in his shed-warmer. Maybe a few bits of that gnarley wood from Down Under, too hard and filled with gritty minerals for even his Precious to glide thru , yet too loverly to burn?
Ray
A lump of coal Ray" HUMBUG"
Ray & Gerry,
I have sent a bad elf to cut your toggles so that your troosers fall down as you arise from stuffing down too much Christmas pud, as I know you will.
As to my Precious Things, they are local planes for local people (i.e. me). They cannot be legitimately used by Strangers, who will be given to the bad troglodyte (he is worse than the rest) should they wander past with an eye on My Beauties.
Coal - Mmmmmmm! I grew up eating coal. There was nowt else to be had except mud.
Lataxe, more of a scrote than a scout.
After reading about Clint Eastwood, John Wayne, and blueberry pies it at first seemed to me that you guys may be straying from the woodstove topic. However, opon further consideration I can now see how all these are related. The good ole cowboy days... Back when the men were men... A pot of "Arbuckle's" and a blueberry pie cooking on the woodstove in the workshop. I must "get a wiggle on" assembling the glued joints before they dry. After getting all the clamps on everything is "in apple pie order." Now I can take a break and watch Dirty Harry on TV. They are the type of movies you can "tie on." Oh, I better turn the TV off and look like I'm working. The "Big Bug" (my wife - she's boss)is coming.By the way Gerry, blueberry pie is my favorite. No cheese with that though. Blueberry pie is good with vanilla icecream and a cup of "Arbuckle's."
"Ah" Blueberry pie, ice cream with a large splash of fresh cream washed down with another large portion. With cheese "YUK" no way
Lataxe send your elf, Gerry needs to lose his trewsers. ( ray, name of singer and next line please )
Yes, JF4 we have come a long way from the subject of workshop wood burning stoves and although the subjects discussed may in some way be related, I like to think we have all just wandered down the trail a little, opened our minds and let a little magic and much needed humour in.
Someone once said " all men are but little boys " and I agree, why else, would men all over the world lock themselves in tiny sheds to play with their latest toy, turning, sawing, routing and a-dadoing. We love it and have done so since dad bought us our first carpentry set ( of course when I was a lad the saw was real, not made of plastic) Sadly thats where we have stayed. Now we have big power tools to play with , much more fun and we don't allow anyone in the shed who can tell us off. Thats why , "her in doors" is not given a key. If you don't believe me, ask Bob, he will confirm Ray is still but a cub and still the smartest boy in class.
So you see, JF4, the deviation from the original subject, at first deadly serious, gradually became light hearted, then down right silly. Still boys at heart, some of us who still remember how to laugh, took up the challenge and tried a little humour . To my mind with great success, KNOTS has certainly brightened my day, but the workshop project has suffered. it looks like it may be March before I play with my new toys.
Lataxe the boy who grew up suddenly when he was only eight, discovered at that tender age , "LASSIE" was really a boy. It shocked him into manhood over night, he lost the ability to believe in any thing his eyes could not see. No Santa, No Snow white, No CHAMPION THE WONDER HORSE for this poor boy. A man at the age of eight years old, how sad.
Remember there will always be time for serious talk, a time to learn and a time to share a problem but its always laughter that brightens our days and this world would be a sad place without it..
At this time of the year I think that we should all rejoice that the boy within us lives on and I hope you all get the presents you have requested from Santa.
Before I go, JF4, I would like to ask, hopefully without causing offence, are you related to C3PO and R2D2 you have such a strange name, it crossed my mind that maybe Mum and Dad are Droids. If I am correct in that assumption, could you please get me R2D2 autograph, my grandson loves him. It was your blank profile that gave you away, I just happen to know that driods don't have profiles and you all live in space.
Kind Regards and season greetings
Gerry
EVERY MAN SHOULD HAVE A SHED ( Be generous to the sick, poor, and needy over Christmas. Be generous to our own, if we all send Lataxe a lump of coal and JF4 supplies the cheese (Driods cant eat cheese it gums up the hydraulics) then I am sure it will brighten his day. What he does not eat he can throw on the stove and keep warm.) Lataxe Merry Christmas.
Gerry,I'm glad this topic has taken a lighter, more humorous tone. I've had many a laugh and look forward to reading about the latest discussion. I couldn't agree with you more, life would be a sad place without humor. As far as getting an autograph from R2D2, I'm sorry, I don't know him personally. I'm actually made of flesh and bone! I cannot give away the meaning of JF4. It's top secret information. I live in a remote mountainous region of upstate new york (USA). A secret, hidden valley, with pretty streams and hardwoods as far as the eye can see. Only I know the path to the hidden valley. A magical land, isolated from the rest of the world, where one only needs to have fun woodworking and eat blueberry pie.
JF,
Ok, now hold on there.
A secret, hidden valley, with pretty streams and hardwoods as far as the eye can see.
That's just not right. If ye want, I'll talk to my cousin 'bout some of that good stash of Cabots cheese he has, but I must insist on delivering it in person!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
KiddervilleAcres,It'll cost ye more than cheese! A couple blueberry pies and a pot of Arbuckle's and I might be tempted. :)
JF,
Blueberry pie and vanilla ice cream - I now need another keyboard; this time I'm getting a waterproof one!
Dad used to make homemade with one of those old fashioned ice cream makers. Non of this elektrikery stuff ye know. I have it now mebbe I should get busy.
Oh, I better turn the TV off and look like I'm working.
A man's gotta know his limitations.
Couldn't resist man. :-)
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 12/3/2008 9:22 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
KiddervilleAcres,I just shorted out my keyboard. Homemade icecream made with an old fashioned icecream maker! I'm so hungry for icecream now that I'm headed to the freezer to see if we have something hiding in the back. No time for homemade, becuase it's time for bed. I've made homemade before. What a treat. They have electric mixers now. I priced one that will attach to my Kitchen Aid Mixer, but they are a little pricey. I might have to buy one though, becuase "A man has to know his limitations." :)I love the quote, "A man's gotta know his limitations." Maybe I should use that quote on the "Big Bug" when she comes out to my shop to see what I'm up to. "Go ahead, make my day!" would be a good one too. :)
KiddervilleAcres,I lucked out and found some vanilla icecream in the freezer. I melted a little peanut butter to go with it. A perfect bedtime snack!
old fashioned ice cream makers..
You mean filled with Half&Half, Ice, rock salt and a hand crank? Spent many pleasurable hours crankin' on one!We used Half&Half.. Poor so we could not afford real Cream.
Edited 12/12/2008 4:39 am by WillGeorge
Will,
That's the one.
The reason we could afford real cream is my dad used to own a grocery store. That and Uncle Stewart also owned cows!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Yeah, we were real poor too and couldn't afford half and half but we did have a cow.
Gerry,Now, If I was an adder and you was to micturate in my direction then I might hiss a bit in admonishment. But in fact an adder is a shy wee snurkler and will take pains to avoid the likes o' ye and also everyone else. And at night, the adder is as dozy as a sleepy-heed with half a bottle of whusky and a cup of cocoa in him, so will not even notice a bit of micturate in the breeze.Them badgers is a different kettle of mammals but if you were so daft as to present yer bum to one - well: shurley you are not seeking sympathy? The badger needs to have a bit of space to forage and cavort, without folk in bad shorts dibbing and dobbing all night just down the way and banging at tent pegs.Finally, I must remonstrate with you concerning your proposal that Americans come over here with their guns and some kind of hunting intention. Shurely you know they have "itchy trigger fingers" and little care for the rounds that go astray? (They have seen too many fillums in which steely-eyed blokes with 348 bullets in their 6-shooters loose-off the ordinance with great vigour but little aim, yet never hit anyone except the bad guys). The cat is very worried now and is demanding a flak jacket and a small steel helmet with FRIEND written on it. Who can blame him?Lataxe, part man, part badger and 10% snake
Zolton,
What a great story. Now, did ye fetch all them berries for Mom?
Back in the early 60's the lake was quiet and calm, with hardly any power boats around.
Oh man those days are long gone I'm afraid so I DO appreciate your experience. We have friends down there and they have a hard time going out on the lake without dodging wakes from the power yots and the incessent whine of jet skis buzzing all around.
Down in MA it's even worse - every mud puddle is chock full of boats!
Retirement in the boonies is gettin better all the time,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Ray,On "Eagle Lake", early one morning we were paddling thru the mist rising off the glass-flat water.
This comment really brought back some memories. A year after I moved onto the next level my old Scout troop asked me to come back and help out on a canoe trip. The day started off horrible, the wind was against us and we had to cross through some shallows that in the end we had to drag our canoes through. When we reached the other end of the lake before our first portage we found that the low water level had left us with 100yards of mud before the shore. We spent most of the day in thigh deep mud dragging the canoes to the shore, only to find a worse situation on the next lake! We wisely decided to give up as we wouldn't have time to compete the trip.
As we turned back the wind had calmed, the day was still warm, and the lake was smooth as glass. All the trouble and disappointment of the day just disappeared in that moment.
Nice post, jerry, brings back memories of packing as a scout up hill but never at night, what an idea, I can simply close my eyes and be transported there. You really hit it with the images that were brought back to me. But...I was a scout 40 years ago! Do the scouts still hike in the winter and camp in the snow? I hope so. I can still make a fire in the snow and in the rain. Is that a valuable skill? I think so....
chocolate,
I'm glad my post brought back some memories. Apparently your Scout experiences were not like Doug's!
Our troop camped 12 months a year during the time I was involved. We had some weather-related adventures, but were careful never to let the boys know that safety was our primary concern. It would have spoiled their fun. Water related activities in particular had me feeling like a mother hen, as I counted heads over and over again.
Cheers,
Ray
Ray,
as I counted heads over and over again.
So that's how ye larnd how to cifuh!? Me I'm praktisn the new nglish.......
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 12/4/2008 8:58 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Gerry,
I'm afeared a serious bone may be in order, just to keep somewhat on track.................
When you get to fire up that hunk of metal just a couple of thangs:
Don't burn wet wood. You won't get the heat out of the wood that you will when it's dry AND will cause rapid buildup of creosote; not a goo thing. Also, it is generally not good practice to slow burn or let the wood smoulder for long periods of time.
Poplar and cedar burns very fast and VERY HOT! Cherry also burns very fast too. Not a good idea to burn a lot of paper as things will get HOT FAST!
When I start a stove I like to let crank at first. I'll leave the draft wide open for at least 30 minutes on startup. Burns the crud out of the whole thing, including the chimney.
I'll keep feeding the stove with gradually bigger pieces as I go till I get a good sized bed of red hot coals. When you put a good sized chunk in it starts burning almost imediately I'll load her up and cut the throttle (damper) back to about ¾ closed. From there I control the fire using the input air damper to control the amount of oxygen coming into the stove.
Another thing to watch out for is to make sure there is a good bed of ashes on the bottom of the stove. This will insulate the bottom from getting too hot and will also keep it dry so it won't rust.
Now you might ask how do you build up this bed of ashes? On any stove, be it new or used, I like to line the bottom with bricks before firing it up. I don't use firebrick (Too expensive and in my opinion, isn't necessary, but your mileage may vary.)
You can remove the bricks after building the ashe bed (usually at least 2") but I usually leave them in there.
Yeah I burn my stoves on the hot side cause that's what they're for. Ye can always take off some clothes or open a winder.
Regards, Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
KiddervilleAcres,If you'd like to try a nice hot burning and long lasting wood, try using hop horn beam and iron wood (sometimes known as muscle wood). This stuff is hard on the chainsaw, but worth it.
JF,
I got this old barrel stove, 'bout 35 gallon sized, in the garage. Not sure where it came from originally but my brother in law gave it to me a long time ago. The steel in it is ¼" thick and it's built like a tank.
I roll up 'bout 6 newspapers and tie 'em in a knot. Hmmmm, wonder what's up with that!
Then I thwod in a couple handfuls of small pieces of cedar. Guy down the road apiece makes cedar fencees and gives me all the offcuts. Then I toss in a small cup full of heating oil, strike and toss in a wooden match and let her rip!
Next goes in a good armful of hardwood offcuts and a half dozen 2" sticks of dry wood, close the door and open the air inlet; chimney damper's wide open.
Is hop horn beam what we call hemlock? Heard of it before but can't say I've ever burned any. Ironwood? Won't that rust yer stove!?
Regards, Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
KiddervilleAcres,I like the barrle stoves. You can still buy kits to make those and they'll hold a lot of wood. "Then I toss in a small cup of oil" You're trying to get "The Little Green People" going again, aren't you???! :)Hop horn beam and iron wood are two different trees, both of which should grow in your area of the country as well. They are not hemlock. They are deciduous hardwoods. They are small scrubby looking trees. I guess they are sometimes used as fence posts, etc.
Bob,
Thanks for info, instruction printed and pinned to wall above stove area. Sadly no stove there at present, the hearth is laid for stove to stand on, with only two courses of bricks laid to form surround. Jumping from one job to another at present, working around the weather.
Today spent on roof of bungalow, re-leading roof gully, replacing broken tiles and re-setting ridge tiles. Temp 6c so I may just get away with that, providing it does not drop to low tonight. Just managed to cover before heavens opened late this afternoon.
Not to mention, the ceiling and insulation that I have to rip out and replace, in master bedroom.Then of course it has to be re-decorated. "Her in doors" not to happy at present and wants to know, if Christmas lights are going up this year or next ? For some unknown reason she gets a little upset if I even mention the workshop.
So the wood burning stove and the blue berry pie, is placed on the back burner at present.
Regards Gerry
Gerry,
Jumping from one job to another at present, working around the weather.
Ahhh, another Mother Nature driven sole; tis a way of life here. Biggest problem is that you end up with 27,371 projects in various states of completion! Might have something to do with my astrological sign - Virgo.
Good to see you have your priorities set right. Perhaps blueberry pie for the little fat man in the red suit? Heh, heh or should I say Ho, Ho, Ho!
Got some lights meself to put up but it's 10°F right now so will have to wait for Mother to warm things up a bit. :-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Gerry,Woodstove and blueberry pie on the back burner??? For your sacrifice, I hope Santa will be good to you this year. For all your hard work, maybe you can convince "her in doors" to let you buy some more woodworking tools! You have to learn how to play these situations to your advantage. JF4
JF,
You must have had sugar on snow bein from upstate NY aint ye?
Heat it up on the stove in a saucepan to a medium boil, then make a mad dash out and pour it on the snow. Turns into a maple flavored taffy.
Uncle Stewart used to like it till it stuck his dentures together. He had to make a mad dash for the bathroom cause he bit his tongue. He sure was a talker, well used to be anyway, cept when he has sugar on snow in camp.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 12/6/2008 9:11 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
KiddervilleAcres,We call those snow cones up here in the big north. I tried your recipe and it worked out just fine! Must be the water boiled on the woodstove that does the trick... Too bad for your uncle Stewart. I hope he got his dentures fixed. You know you can put those dentures next to the woodstove and the taffy will melt right off.We almost lost all our snow here yesterday and then it started to snow again in the afternoon. Covered the ground in white again. It always snows here till spring.Oh, if you make an of your maple flavored taffy, make sure ye get the white snow. I hear you New Hampshirians have a lot of yellow snow out your way! :)
Bob,
You have a dangerous practice with that stove-lighting tekneek involving the volatile liquids! Still, a little excitement is a Good Thing, especially for scout masters, who generally get concerned about safety and other unnatural states in a chap. Them yeller snow rituals you pratice and the consequences for one's teeth are also..... exotic! I am thinking of refering you to Lancaster University Anthropology Department, as they enjoy the field-study of strange tribes and their even stranger ritual. Could you put-up a boffin this Christmas? (You must not eat him or turn him into a toffee-apple, though but).
*****
I am still awaiting the flue-damper for the new stove, which is apparently de-rigeur if one is to burn sawdust, which might otherwise run away to the point of melting the stove or blowing up the summer hoosey! Also, that hoosey is currently full of 3 adirondack-worth of chair parts awaiting a final stain of the iroko bits to match the teak bits before all are oiled and assembled.
And that Christmas is getting in the way of real life, as usual. The ladywife is in a paroxym of card-writing, present-buying, meal-planning and similar. Still, I got to walk into Lancaster and back along the canal yesterday (10 miles total) so that we could attend the naughty-knicker shop and choose a wee item or three for her prezzie. This is all pleasure, as the sun was bright on the frosty landscape, there was pizza and icecream for lunch and then the perusal about that shop. :->
That stove (a Greenheart) me and Gerry have bought is a strange Spanish design in which the air is drawn in mostly from the top, down a long internal pipe to the grate and the chimney orifice. This means the fire is lit from the top and draws downwards through whatever one has packed into the stove chamber. Apparenty this procedure is what allows one to burn the sawdust, which is loaded from the top then also lit from the top with a bit of paper or a taper. I confess that the whole thing is confusing me, whilst it is still a theory as yet untested by actual ignition.
I have grown my eyebrows extra-thick, just in case there is a whoosh or even a bang when I first light the contraption, which will be after Christmas now.
Lataxe, a stoker.
Lataxe, and Bob,
Back in the day, when I were a Scoutmaster, we took pride on being able to light a fire with one match without the benefit of any sort of conflagratory liquid. That stuff was derisively termed "Girl Scout Water", and use or even recomendation of same brought the same ridicule as "I'm cold", or "My foot has a blister" , "This pack is too heavy, why do I have to carry the water too?"
They always made me bring up the rear....
Ray the safety-conscious, " Boys, boys, remember, No broken bones, and no more than a pint of blood!"
Ray,
You shouldn'ta mentioned the pints of blood. Mel will be thinkng on the number of boys to a troop then multiplying by the selling price of a pint o' the red liquid to your illness-exploiters (I mean hospitals). Before long there may be bleeding stations along the trail............ It's one way to get a badge. "I am a little bleeder".
Of course, in Blighty we give our blood away to the Fabianistic National Health Service, who never waste any as it makes a good black pudding when out of life for the purpose of reviving frozen tramps or bringing business men with bleeding gastric ulcers (caused by guilt) back to life.
****
Girl scout water. Hmmmmmmm.
Lataxe, never comfortable in a uniform but admiring of those worn by nurses (who may be grown-up girl scouts).
Lataxe,
Your thoughts have taken a wrong turn. You are a naughty boy, and must be punished. Send me the ladywife's email addy, and I'll forward to her, the size cane to be used, and the uniform she must don aforehand, for administering your discipline.
Ray
Ray,
Just so you'll know I've lit my share of fires by twisting sticks on a log. But I gotta tell ye, when it's 20°F in the garage and ye git to my age, ye ain't 'bout to wait long fur the fire to git goin.
Besides that the arthritis bothers me, my feet are cold and I'm shakin from the cold so bad I caint hold a stick steady enuf to twist it! You used matched!? Man I thought I was a weiner, or is it whiner. :-)
Hey, didn't they have a badge for litin a fire with a stick? If it wont the boys, I'm sure the girl scouts did......... Or mebbe it was the cub scouts.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 12/7/2008 9:24 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
My favorite stick for lighting a campfire no matter how wet is called a road flare in some parts of the country.
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Don,
I am glad to see that you do not adopt half-measures even when it comes to mundane tasks such as lighting the fire. I am tempted to consult you concerning full-measure solutions to various other procedures but I fear I might be convinced and end up a practitioner of many acts that may be considered illegal by Nanny, who would then send in her rozzers and beaks.
Anyway, I was always a cautious child (until the hormones arrived).
Lataxe, who may be a latent pyromaniac.
Bob,
Another easy firestarter is a propane torch, lit and the tip inserted under the kindling for a minute or two. Effective, and unlike Don's highway flare, reusable. Kinda heavy for backpacking, tho it's easily transported from the pickup bed to the campfire. Or from the work bench drawer to the woodstove.
Ray
Lataxe,
Was that visit to Victoria's Secret for the ladywife or exciting <oooppps I meant exotic :-)> window treatments for the shed?
Or do you need additional garments for your upcoming trip to Colorado? Oh my, this is getting out of hand......
Oh by the way my pyrotechnical exploits are quite safe I assure you. #2 heating oil is a grade or three below kerosene in the refining process and as such is not explosive. Either way it is certainly a step up from mixing oil and gasoline in a squirt bottle to fan the flames!
A boffin, I'm afraid to ask what that is.
:-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
I believe your term for a boffin is "geek" or one who has an overpowering interest in scientific analysis, technological playthings and similar; and who has wild hair, strange clothes and an even stranger attraction to mature ladies.
For some reason "geek" is a term of abuse whereas "boffin" is a sort of grudging compliment issued by folk who cannot grasp the boffin-work but nevertheless admire the boffin-products and insights. I believe it was a term that was most used about ingenious weapon-makers during the war but now is applied to all manner of scientists who look and behave as proper scientists should. (Wild hair, starey eyes and great ideas).
Lataxe, who has one or two geek tendencies hisself but insufficient of them to be a boffin.
BANNED FROM KNOTS BY ", HER IN DOORS"
What can a man do, but I suppose if he is incapable of getting his lights up, then its only to be expected.
I have sneaked out of the bedroom with only half a ceiling, while "her in doors" sleeps, to contact my friend Lataxe to ask about that flue damper.
Have you received yours yet ? They have sent me a 95mm, which would guarantee melt down in four seconds, if I followed Bobs instructions.
Every things ready to go at my end but I cant box up or fire up without that damper. My eye brows have already over taken my beard but all to no avail.
Hope you have had better luck than I.
To the rest of you guys out there, especially JF4 and his metal lady U.TIN.1, I am still reading the posts and smiling quietly,even if I am not allowed to participate.
I shall return to annoy you all, I hope before Christmas 2009.
regards Gerry
EVERY MAN SHOULD HAVE A SHED ( AND THE RIGHT TO USE IT)
Gerry!!! Your supposed to be in your workshop, not in the dog house! You poor soul! Banned from Knots???!!! Sounds like you and Lataxe need some lessons on how to deal with the "her in doors." Being from cowboy country, maybe KiddervilleAcres and I can help. This is not how John Wayne and Dirty Harry would handle this situation... giving in and hanging pretty little lights and shopping! They'd be out in their shop, with their feet warming next to the woodstove. Maybe KiddervilleAcres can help out here and give some of his advice. What ever you do don't go buy her diamonds or something like that. Don't want to form any bad habits! Hope this helps... JF4
Mr 4,
There is no lesson that can teach a bloke how to handle a fizzy ladywife except years of long experience - a trial and error process which in some cases is fatal or results in terrible psychological scars. More than one Knotter exhibits such scars for all to see.
On the other hand, the quality "natural slave girl" should be high on the list of attributes used, by all those chaps requiring a quiet life, when seeking a girlie with whom to enter the blissful matrimonial state. My father-in-law trained mine up, bless his size 13s.
***
My flue damper is still not on the doormat under the letterbox. I have emailed the "suppliers" who have apparently gone away for Christmas. This gives more time to grow the eyebrows even thicker, as they are a very effective stove explosion-absorber.
Lataxe
Leataxe,
Many years of matrimonial experience has given me the ability to always have the last word in any marital disagreement--
"Yes Dear."
I've found that any other response won't be the Last Word, but just the First Word, in a new argument.
Ray
Poor Gerry...in the dog house, but there is a lesson to be learned. If, like me, you are in the dog house often then it only makes sense to have a really nice dog house. Every "dog house" (that's an old PA Dutch term for workshop) should have cable, internet, coffee pot,a good wood stove, and comfortable chair etc. I even put a bathroom in my dog house.
BillB
Bill,Your "dog house" sounds like the place to be! I don't have a real comfy chair in mine yet. What do you suggest? Maybe I can convince the wife I need a leather recliner to set next to the woodstove... JF4
Greetings,
My wife got me a one of those rocking chairs made from Trex (or similar) plastic lumber. It's just the ticket. Very comfortable and when it gets dusty, I just hose it off.
Happy Holidays
BillB
Gerry me good man,
It sounds to me like you've fallen into the Knots trap. Kinda damned if ye do and damned if ye don't. BUT, now is the time to pounce upon the opportunity her in doors has presented ya!
There is an underlying advantage to participation on Knots. Where else can you get sage advice sprinkled with a bit of nonsense all at the same time as is available here on Knots? You must explain to her in doors that you are using this forum for research to complete HER HoneyDoList.
These things take time and must be properly done. You are using this forum so that the results of your labour will satisfy her. Knots is simply another tool in your quest for excellence. Our finely honed advice will get you to the cutting edge. Man that was a crock, eh!?
OK, I'll get real for once. As John Wayne uttered those immortal words back in John Fords 1939 Stagecoach filum, "Sometimes a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do". Whilst you're stringing those lights you just might get a twinkle in your eye, gaze at the North for a bit, and think about a steaming cup of hot chocolate and a warm piece of bluberry pie topped with some ice cream.
It appears to me that you haven't been smitten by the festive mood of the holidays. But I suspect in your words that it is just waiting to burst forth. It's ok, let it happen. Look around your home and think of one thing you can do/make that will make this Christmas memorable. Don't pick something unrealistic cuz that little fat man in the red suit is gettin ready for his annual trip ye know.
Above all I wouldn't suggest taking the Clark Gable Frankly Margaret, I don't give a damn approach for there's always the chance that you'll be Gone with the Wind. Or worse yet, a sack of coal for your stove!
There's just a bit over two weeks left. Times a wasting matey!
Here comes Santa Claus, here comes Santa Claus,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 12/9/2008 6:48 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Gerry,
A lady called Julie at Stovespares has just emailed me, following my nagging the rascals, to say they have refunded my payment for a flue damper as they are out of stock and won't have any for the forseeable future! Cuh!!
So, I have searched here and there for another supplier but so far no luck. Howzaboot ye, lad?
Lataxe
Lataxe,
After wasting yet another two hours, trying to ring stoves-on-line. Today I gave up, I can promise, I will have a wee word or two with them in the New Year. For both our sake's lets hope their stoves are better than their after sales service.
On ebay I found a 5" cast iron flue damper and purchased. It should be delivered within the next two or three days. I may have to use the 4" grinder to trim of a couple of mm, but that should not be a problem. At least I should be able to fire up before Christmas which may be a necessity as " her in doors" has indicated, if the lights are not up by this weekend, I may be sleeping in there.
I would have put them up this afternoon, but Santa's sent me a few early Christmas Presents. Great hairy brown things with long tails and very big teeth. They are holding their Christmas Dinner Parties in a few of my compost bins. I have found that my granddads wood mallet is less than effective, my cat has gone on holiday and my shot gun licence expired last year.
Had I allowed "her in doors" to continue to breed American Main Coons, those hairy things would not have come within a mile of the place. Definitely in the dog house now.
Enough of my problems, back to the damper, the sellers name (nationwideflue) ITEM NUMBER 120333414992 buy it now £13.50 postage £2 AND THEY HAVE PLENTY LEFT. Have a look and see what you think.
Regards Gerry
EVERY MAN SHOULD HAVE A SHED ( Preferbably with a bed and no dirty rats )
Gerry & Lataxe,
On ebay I found a 5" cast iron flue damper and purchased.
Good grief. You guys been looking for a 5" round cast iron flue damper!? Not sure about 5" but the local hardware store sells 6" & 8" off their shelves. For some reason I thought the damper was some sort of special one.
I used to have a box stove that had 5" metal chimney. I'm sure I still have the 5" round damper, but it might smell of heating oil. :-)
Now about those lights. If you have lots of straight runs like I do, I take a piece of strapping (~ ¾" T X 2¼" W) and cut it to the length of the run of lights. I then stable the lights (wires) to the strapping. Three screws for a 10' run of lights ready to go up. Longer runs just make multiple lengths and plug 'em together.
I have a 66' straight run under the eaves of the house that I put up in less than 1 hour. You can paint them to match if ye want.
On another note, the CFO (Chief Financial Officer - read wife) asked me to get out her Santa Claus collectiion. I got about half of them and will get the rest tomorrow.
View Image
And to think she gives me grief when I want to buy a new woodworking tool. There ain't no justice in this world!
I made the two wooden standing ones and the wreath. The CFO did the painting. Am repairing the candle powered whirligig in the background. That was done many years ago but it got wet since last year. I feel like one of Santas elves.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 12/10/2008 9:34 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob,
I know a German pointer dawg that would be glad of them santas. He would dispense them to oblivion in no time - might even eat them - and then those nice wee bits o'furniture could be seen without all the ....... stuff on them.
Still, it is an improvement on the various garden gnome collections one sees when going about the village. Unfortunately these are made of concrete and even Monty the pointer cannot chaw that stuff to bits.
Lataxe, enemy of dollies everywhere.
PS Gerry, thank you for that pointer to a flue damper alternative.
The problem with Main Coons is you have to watch out for small dogs. Like say bull dogs and German Shepards. Those Main Coons are huge. Neighbor had one and it was almost the size of the local Bobcats.
Still they would not have much problem with vermin.
Doug M.
Doug,
Gerry is not good with wildlife. Apparently he has been trying to persuade a badger to come home with him by allowing it to bite his erse. (They are not inclined to let go once they have got a jaw on you). But they aren't even interested in eating rats, so Gerry is in for a disappointment, even if he does get one home. It will merely raid his larder for the cakes and jam. No amount of saying, "Good badger, no! Put them cakes back!" will dissuade it.
Perhaps he should get Don Green over with his Yorkie? It will deal with the surfeit of ratus ratus toot sweet.
Lataxe
Hay, I am from Michigan, out state "animal" over here is the Wolverine. You know what a Wolverine is? It is a really pissed off Badger with a bad attitude. The most amazing thing about a Wolverine is that they put up with each other long enough to mate. Badgers are for wimps. Wolverines most likely would not go after vermin either, they go after other things like Cow, Dear, People, Bears, and before the Wolverines killed them all off the Woolly Mammoth and the T-Rex. :)
Doug M.
Doug,I'm from Upstate NY. We have a few cougars (mountain lions)in the area. How would they stand up to a wolverine? We have a lot of black bears too. JF4
Well truth be know they would stand up pretty well. The issue is that Wolverines are all but insane so they tend to not notice things like be smaller then what they are attacking. Size wise they are not that big (a bit like a large badger) but the basically are is a large badger with bigger teeth and claws and a really bad attitude. Fortunately in one of the nutty things in the world. We do not have them any longer in the state (some on some islands and such in the upper peninsula, but that is it) so we really do not have to put up with them. I have seen photos from (I think Canada?) that showed one that clawed it's way into a house through the solid wood front door.
Doug M
Doug,
Wolverines sound a lot like Fisher Cats, which we have here. They have raised holy old hell with our chickens in the past.
Regards, Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Doug,I have heard it said that Wolverines are one of the few animals that kills for the sheer sake of killing. Nasty beasties.BB
Wound not surprise me, the storys are nasty about the little suckers. They are one of those piss them off and they will go out of their way to make you sorry types. I hear their is some sort of "Cape Buffalo" in Africa that is kind of like that. Major pissed off attitude. Only two things make Wolverines tolerable, first is that there are not very many of them and the area the live in is small, and second that they are really kind of small. They are nothing but a pissed off bad tempered oversized badger. Maybe it is the lack of sun light that makes them so mean?
Doug M,
BB,
"I have heard it said that Wolverines are one of the few animals that kills for the sheer sake of killing".
Shurely you are forgetting the humans, a highly dangerous species. Happily, some of the worst ones are kept on a small island in between the Atlantic and the Pacific. The really bad ones are kept on that other island just off the French north coast. :-)
I have heard that the ones on the island down-under are safe enough, unless you beat them at cricket or swimming; or look at their beer whilst licking your lips.
Lataxe, thinking of forming a wolverine protection league as you never know when youu might need to unleash a savage beast here or there.
I have heard it said that Wolverines are one of the few animals that kills for the sheer sake of killing.
And then we have humans!
And I have a Yellow Lab.. Very old now.. He is neutered and a very genteel laid back dog that loves anything.. EXCEPT if he sees a Skunk.. I try to forget how many times I have tried to get that smell off of him! OH, I forgot abut rabbits!
Edited 12/14/2008 12:56 am by WillGeorge
While I suppose it is possible I stretch things a bit (I assume one would figure that out from the reference to killing off the mammoth and dinos) on a pound for pound basis I will put a wolverine up against anything. It also has huge claws and teeth for its size, but the big thing about them is that the wolverine is just a very very bad attitude.
As for Maincoons, those things are for a cat huge. My brother has a mix part maincoon and part generic house cat, and the things is one of the largest cats you will ever see. I had a mix years ago, and while she was large, she was nothing compared to my brothers. Both of them where very smart.
Doug M (Staying out of the way of both Maincoons and Wolverines)
Doug M,
On a pound to pound basis, I reckon my motherinlawrine would give that wolverine a run for it's money. She really does have a very bad attitude, she shares the same facial expressions and jaw line, she is equipped with a bitting tongue, and her teeth are much larger and sharper,. She trains twenty four seven exercising that huge mouth, even in her sleep, usually babbling on about useless son -in- laws. To top it all, she has the same ability, as the wolverine to ward of her attackers by producing foul and poisonous gases from her rear end.
I have no idea who would kill the other first but I would enjoy watching the contest.
If your wolverine is agreeable to the contest, I think I can trick the motherinlawrine into coming over by offering her a free holiday, Bob and Ray will sort the venue and old Lataxe can run the book. It SHOULD BE A FUN DAY OUT FOR US ALL.
Regards Gerry
EVERY MAN SHOULD HAVE A SHED ( Without interference from the motherinlawrine )
Gerry,
Thsi is all I can say. I'm laughing so hard I woke up Mary (wife)!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Now, you should be ashamed. You know that game fighting is strictly against the law. The rewards just are not worth the penalty. I can see the posse coming over right now.
Edited 12/16/2008 1:35 am ET by Tinkerer3
The problem with that Idea, is that they would team up against you. You have note looked into these Wolverines well enough. Some of the Females when they get old, turn into mother-in-laws, as a form of retirement. Others not inclined to a passive retirement, take up a second carrier teaching mother-in-laws how to be nasty.
Doug M
Doug,
I see it now - Gerry's MiL astride the wolverine, goading it with spurs made from old pie-cutters and waving a gelding fork! This is the trouble with inventing new concept-sports involving ferocious beasts; one cannot forsee all the consequences. So Gerry ought to put aside his wishful thinking and vivid imagination to return to his training of badgers with his bum. This is relatively safe, unless the badger is a friend of his MiL of course.
The best strategy with a MiL is to issue an irresistable concoction of flattery, alchoholic beverages and gameoldcocks looking for a new partner in life. The Mil will at the very least turn her claws and viper-tongue upon the unfortunate gameoldcock, as he attempts to pledge his troth whilst keeping his teeth in. They are easy prey as they can ony hobble, what with their dodgy knee and the surfeit of port taken after luncheon.
Lataxe, whose MiL is now deed as a dodo (no it wasn't me, yer honour, honest).
Lataxe, while You seam to have a good plan for the MiL problem I like my solution better. I just made sure to never get myself into the fix of having one in the first place. Simple way out if it is to never get married. Worked like a charm. Added benefit, is I do not have to worry about the wife having issues with what I buy for the shop or how much time I spend in the shop, or if I track saw dust into the house.
Doug M.
Doug,
Ah ha! You have failed to grasp the fundamentals of wife-gettin'. You may have to try a few before you find the right one but......
Some wimminfolk have a gene that makes them want to look after helpless thangs. Therefore, you must act like a helpless thang. Then they will spoil you with tool-presents. Also, they will iron your clothes whilst you are in the shed pharting about.
However, when you track in the shavings to the hoosey, offer a sop by vacuuming them up. After all, we shed dwellers are all dab-hands with vacuums. All ladywives are impressed by a vacuuming husband and show him off to ther friends. It is a small price to pay for having a slave-girl.
Lataxe, master of all he is allowed to be master over by the ladywife.
FLASH NEWS REPORT.
Today the U.S. Wolverine fight promoter DOUG M pulls his animal out of the proposed summer fight to the death, between the North American WOLVERINE and the most feared and dangerous creature, said to inhabit this earth, The champion of champions Gerry Nocab's British MOTHERINLAWRINE
No official reason for the cancellation was given, from the Doug M camp but inside source's have revealed that the promoter fears for the life of the of his arch enemy Gerry Nocab the British fight promoter. He is reported to have said to friends, I cant stand this big mouth limy, but I don't want his blood on my hands, this man still believe in Santa so how can I expect him to understand that both these animal will turn against him when they realise he is responsible for the proposed contest.
Gerry Nocab was said to be furious at the news of the Doug M camp pull out, "These bloody Yanks are all the same" he said from his Wickford Workshop today, " They are always bragging about having the best pound to pound fighters in the world and when they are offered the chance to prove it, they cry off. giving some weak excuse about them fearing for my life just because I believe in Santa" He also denied reports that his solicitors Tinkerer3 & Sons had warned him of possible imprisonment if he insisted on going ahead with his plans.
Finally, The Book Makers, Lataxe Man & Co made an official statement today, following the announcement that the fight had been cancelled. Their spokesman said " All bets placed on this fight where taken in good faith that the fight would actually take place. Therefore the company felt it was fair and just that the predicted profit forecasts from those bets would be given to charity immediately the bets where placed and for this reason the company is unable to refund any bets placed to date. The receiving charity is dedicated to suppling Summer Hoosies for out of work NORWEGIANS wishing to settle in the U.K.
Merry Christmas to everyone! Hope the holiday brings you peace and happineness.
JF4
Wishing you all a very Happy Christmas and an even better new year.
From Marion "her in doors" and Gerry.
Gerry,
I'm glad you are back to a marital bliss. Your "her in doors" was very wise to make you an English breakfast. "The fastest way to a man's heart is through his stomach!"
I was rolling on the floor in laughter reading about your motherinlawrine! Hehehehehe! I think I may have ruptured one of my metal panels from all the laughter!!! I to have a motherinlawrine! The most viscious, evil creature that ever walked the face of the earth! I have installed anti-motherinlawrine guns at the end of our driveway, and have guard dogs patrolling the property. "EVERY MAN SHOULD HAVE A SHED ( Without interference from the motherinlawrine )" It was once suggested by a friend that I use some of my workshop space to make a mother-in-law apartment. I told my friend that I would burn down my barn (workshop) faster than one could strike a match, before I would do that! My motherinlawrine has the same sharp tongue and temper as your motherinlawrine. She is also equiped with a big nose for snooping around others business, and a heart beat and blood pressure like a turtle. This can only mean one thing... She will most likely live till she's 110 years old. I think she may even be part vampire! My only hope is to enter her in a match against a wolverine. Please let me know if you have more contestant openings. I will gladly muzzle and crate my motherinlawrine for save shipment to England. I eagerly await your answer!
Your friend,
JF4
JF & Lataxe,
What is it with these motherinlawrines? I'm married for the second time, glutton for punishent, mebbe?
As to my first MiL, your descriptions fit perfectly, perhaps 'cept the foul odors eminating from their posteriors - never got that close.
The second wifes mom had passed away (God rest her soul) before I met her, so all I know is that she was wonnerful. She did manage to spoil her daughter though. But on the upside Mary (wife) used to play football when in high school!
My experience has been a pleasant one (luck I guess) so I don't unnerstand what the fuss is all about. I mean, you'd think you all stabbed their daughters or sumpin...............................
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Kiddervilleacres,My only guess as to why motherinlawrines exist is that they must have been bit by something... You know, like a rabbid animal. Once they are bit they get mean and start frothing at the mouth. Or like a vampire, once they have a taste for blood they need more... Maybe Gerry can help ye more here? All I can say is thankfully my "her in doors" is not like the motherinlawrine! I never get nagged. We enjoy much of the same things. "Her in doors" has even gone hunting and fishing with me on occasions. I even get to buy woodworking tools!! The only complaint I've ever heard is that I still haven't built her a blanket chest. So I guess I'm pretty lucky.JF4
Bob, I too was very lucky, think old Swedish grand ma. She was the font of goodness and sweetness who berated her daughter(kindly but firmly) to be sure to take care of her man. Once we visited and the two grand kids scampered over to gran, she lit up like the aurora borealis, and said softly to me "ya did good" , with never a howdee do to her daughter. That cost me a little subtle jawing on the drive home that night.
On the other hand a sailor friend on watch in our subs control room related (6 hrs. on watch creates multi person topical conversations too varied to even list here) that true happiness for him would be to pour milk into his cereal one morning and then recognize a very current, lovely photo of his mother in law on the milk carton. I said nothing but felt sorry for him. Paddy
Hey Bob and ALL, Dang, I wandered off while fooling with finding another use for good firewood which you can see in this link. http://capisrestaurant.com/ And missed out in some darn good stories about memorable fires and winter hikes. I am sure I could have added a few, having spent a lifetime hiking and camping in all kinds of weather. It seems like the most dismal ones are the ones the mind holds onto most clearly. One of my favorite was a hike into a stretch of the Buffalo R. to an area that I drove into many times in my youth, and mid years, before it got National Wild and Scenic status. I had not been back to this spot in over 30 years. It had been raining mostly for the week before we hiked in as a strong cold front was blowing in around the first of January. Our first evening meal was to be two great salmon steaks which really needed a fire to grill. When we got down to the chosen area, I had already noticed the absence of good firewood as we approached, as night was falling. Setting the fire is always my chore as my partner pitched the tent and sets up camp. I found myself over a quarter mile away, still not finding anything that would really burn, for what seemed like an hour of gathering. Finally the lower branches of young cedar trees growing so thick they were self pruning from being starved for light turned out to be the tender for getting started. The wind speed and temperature were about the same number 20 mph and 20º. We had a heck of a time getting that fire started, and it was popping like crazy when I did. Right off, a big spark burned a hole in my nephews therma-rest mattress, which he was using for a seat. Wouldn't you know the glue in both our kits was dry. After the meal was cooked, as we were sitting, dodging sparks, and brushing them off of gear, they were popping out in all directions, keeping us back further than we wanted to be to stay warm, I noticed something. Those flaming projectiles that were shooting out of the fire, mainly flew out perpendicular to the point on the log from where they emanated.We had been adding wood to the fire in teepee fashion, so the sparks were shooting out in all directions. Now, with my new observation, I turned all of the wood parallel to each other, and perpendicular to the wind, so they would now only shoot into the upwind and downwind direction. It worked, and we moved our seats right up to the fire where we were getting toasted at least on one side at a time. When we finally crawled into our sleeping bags around midnight, the coyotes came right down close to our camp and sang us a couple of really nice songs for us. I love their harmony, although I will admit that it makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up a bit.
Tomorrow night, I will be sitting around a fire in the pit that I centered in the middle of a floating dock that I built, which is out in the middle of the creek right out from our camp. Now we can still enjoy the camaraderie of stories around a nice fire in a great setting, and still have a warm bed to snuggle into. And the coyotes still come to sing for us down there. Merry Christmas to All
Edited 12/24/2008 2:22 am by KeithNewton
Keith,
Good story. I could almost smell that cedar, as it burned your nephew's bedding.
Merry Christmas,
Ray
Yea Ray, ha ha. He had worked at one of those outdoor supply stores all through high-school, and college, so he always had better gear than I. He was using his mat with a new frame that I had not seen, which turns the mat into a nice recliner with good back support. I have to admit that I was having a serious lust for it before that meteor landed on it. ha. He was not the least bit entertained by me laughing my #### off at the prospect of him having to sleep on the cold hard ground for two night. Lucky for him, I was still carrying my closed cell foam mat rolled around my thermarest. He got to borrow that from me.
on a pound for pound basis I will put a wolverine up against anything. It also has huge claws and teeth for its size, but the big thing about them is that the wolverine is just a very very bad attitude.
lol.. lol
My wife was like that if she was mad at me.. But very forgivin for what her man did.
Never tried cheating on her! Or wanted to!
See that is the problem. I never could figure out if a female, was a keeper or a wiverine, just waiting to jump out and attack (well ok I figured out that one of them was) so "solved" the problem by simply not getting hitched to any of them.
Doug M
Good News,
Christmas Lights, are up and Marion my dear wife " her indoors " gave me a wee kiss as she handed me a full English breakfast this morning. ( first home cooked meal I have had in days, the burger bar sales will go down from now on ) Marital bliss returns to the homestead and she has agreed, the large silver patch I have placed over the water damaged ceiling in our bedroom will suffice until Santa has called and we have seen the new year in together. The rats however must go immediately. Rat Man due on Monday.
It is indeed amazing, what a few fairy light can do. Our home looks light Santa's Grotto but what the hell !! " her indoors " is happy and I can get back to the important things in life, the workshop and that bloody stove.
Doug M,
Me thinks you are a little like Lataxe in that you may stretch the truth, a point or two. Maine Coons are big domesticated cats, breed originally. I believe for Rat catching on farms. As big as a German Shepperd, No Doug. Big as a Bobcat Yes, both male Maine Coon's and Bobcat's can weigh about 30 pounds. The only other Simula thing about these cats are their long pointed ears which have tuffs of hair. Their body shape completely different.
The Maine Coon is a gentle giant with a mellow temperament and possess above average intelligence, an ideal cat for a family with children. Marion's Breeding Queen, Elsa weighed in at 14 pounds, mated with a American 30 pound Champion, ( over here on licence) she produced many a fine pedigree litter. I kept her first born male and named him Oscar, at four years old when fully grow he dwarfed his mother weighing in at two stone two pounds, with no fat.
Oscar walked beside me without lead when walking out, but his size frighted off other walkers and no dog never came near him, one hiss was enough, including German Sheppard's. Like a dog he obeyed simple commands ( no other cat will do that they have a mind of their own) Not a cat for the work shop they love laying in sawdust and their eighteen inch ( FOX LIKE) bushed tail absorbs about two pound ofdust.
They are fearless when it comes to other animal no matter how big or small.
Wolverine, kill cows, bears, humans, and woolly mammoths. come on Doug, thats going a little to far. To the best of my Knowledge they maybe able to kill a sick deer and there is only one recorded encounter between a bear and a wolverine. Thirty seconds later the stupid wolverine was dead. After all they are a Mustelidae and as you said an overgrown badger a nasty smelly beastie, but all part of the weasel family. Bobs Fisher cat is part of the same family.
Finally "BADGER ARE FOR WIMPS " I still say you would not like one to bite your rear end and as Lataxe said once their teeth are locked in they don't let go.
Bob,
Nothing special about flue damper other than it was supplied and paid for with the kit and should have fitted the pipe work. Hence the unnecessary Argo and delay in firing the thing up and making my first blueberry pie.
Thanks for the advice about strapping for lights and you was right it only took about nighty minutes to put them up. Not worth the Argo it caused, but when your focused of your dream workshop its hard to pull yourself away for anything else. The "Frankly I don't care" routine you have definitely put me in deep xz!t.
JF4 my metal friend,
A wolverine against a cougar, a massive man killing cat against an over grow nasty bad tempered smelly weasel, no contest. Although I believe from my limited knowledge the cougar would probably turn away rather than fight. the wolverine produces a foul smell from its rear end as a defence mechanism and no animal would want to go near that. The wolverine is also know in some parts, as the skunk bear.
Lataxe,
I will join your Wolverine Protection league, if you stop insisting I bait badger with my rear end exposed. Don't you realise that could attract unwanted persons who are interested in that sort of thing. Now come on mate, after all I did solve your damper problem for you and this is the way you repay me. Aderway mun and XXXX.
Regards Gerry
EVERY MAN SHOULD HAVE A SHED ( with a nice wood burning stove )
correction nighty should be ninety and argo should be agro, Sorry I cant spell without my teeth in
Gerry,
The "Frankly I don't care" routine you have definitely put me in deep xz!t.
You are most welcome, as you know we on Knots are always at the ready to help a fellow shed dweller. :-)
Our home looks light Santa's Grotto
Oh I would really like to see that.
Gerry, I would like to take this opportunity to wish you and Marion a most joyous Christmas holiday. Good show on getting the lights on your home.
Best Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
gerry,
Any cat that would follow commands, (unless it is "come Kitty, dinner is served") would be drummed out of the Society of Felinity this side of the pond. Perhaps what you really have is a bevel-up smoother. I hear they have many of the same qualities you ascribe to Puss.
Our native tribes considered the wolverine evil incarnate. Another of their many names is "Injun Devil".
Ray
Ray,
Never have I found you to be incorrect in your statements, but Ive got you this time Pal. I think you will find the Maine Coons Society breed these cats your side of the pond first, then a few of them swam over here for their holidays and decided to stay. These cats are so intelligent they probably founded the Society of Felinity.
The only things, that are comparable between a Maine coon and a bevel-up smoother is they both cost about the same, are both good value and for many different reasons give their owners a great deal of pleasure, A unique Cat, A unique Tool but thats where the similarity ends.
It's no wonder the native tribes call the wolverine the "Injun Devil" it sure is an evil, mean looking critter, come to think of it , so is the fisher cat and the non related, but equally ugly Tasmanian Devil. I would not like to run into any of them, but an encounter with a Maine coon or an old yellow Lab would make my day.
regards Gerry.
Every man should have a shed ( and a bevel-up smoother)
JF,
Do you like a slice of extra sharp cheddar to go with your pie. If so, my cousin works for Cabot and he gets the cream of the crop to bring home.
Let me know and I'll bring some along and meet ye at your woodshop. By the way, where are ya?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,I'm located in upstate NY. Where are you from? A slice of extra sharp would go great with my apple pie. Just so happens I like Cabots cheese too.JF4
"You can pick up a small camping stove at your sporting good store that will sit on your wood stove."
Oh, I don't need to get one at the sporting goods store. I have a gasoline powered one right here. Let's see, I put it on the wood stove - boy, it is hot. Now I pour the gasoline in...............
Tinkerer3,Just one small, tiny problem. The gasoline fumes would spoil the smell of the appple pie.JF4
I cannot speak to the insurance regulations - my woodstove flue is piped up a standard chimney.
However, I can suggest that you're going to want at least a double-pipe flange in the wall. Despite it being concrete block, getting the mortar between the blocks really hot is not a good thing. Moreover, if you've siding on the outside, and it's anything other than hardy-plank, you'll absolutely have to have a double-pipe flange, as the flue will get easily hot enough to melt/set on fire standard vinyl or masonite siding.
One thing I'd strongly suggest on the woodstove - you want a stove capable of both updraft and side-draft burning. With the stove in side-draft mode, a load of firewood will last 12 hours or more, and about 3-4 hours in the updraft mode. These dual-mode stoves are more expensive, but you'll save the money back many times over in either $$$ or back pain for firewood. Also, if you live in a suburban neighborhood (particularly one with lots of covenants and nosy neighbors), I'd get a catalytic stove. These put out very little smoke for said nosy neighbors to complain about.
Thanks for the advise, although being from the other side of the pond I don't understand the term (siding) My shop has a scratch coat of render then a finished coat, render is simply a mix of cement and soft washed sand,which is then painted for effect. However, if I ever get this project of the ground, your advise to used double skin for safety is appreciated.
Cheers Gerry
Ahh - I think us Yanks would call what you have "stucco". "Siding" refers to attached strips of decorative covering. Traditionally that would be wood strips, but the more modern equivalent is vinyl, aluminum, or "hardy plank" which is a mixture of fiber and concrete.
If you can get an appropriate model (i.e., a side draft burner), getting one that pulls in outside air for combustion would be a big improvement over the one I use - it's my only complaint.
Gerry,
I've installed a woodstove in my shop. It works great for warming the shop up quick and it's inexpensive. I get wood from my own property, so heating is free. As far as insurance I think you'll be ok as long as you make note that you don't park vehicles in your shop. Getting a building permit in our area is required. You'll need to make sure everything is installed correctly and then have your building inspector sign off on the project. This documentation will be good to have to provide to insurance if anything should ever happen. You can use a fireproof drywall behind your stove, which is cheap. Just make sure you have all the proper spacing requirements. Double wall pipe can be bought from Home Depot, Lowes, etc. Your pipe will also need to be installed the correct amount of feet above your roof line. All these code installation requirements will come with your woodstove.
Joe
"You can use a fireproof drywall behind your stove, which is cheap. " When I had a wood-burning stove, we put in a piece of cement board (is that the right term?) behind the stove, spaced out from the actual wall by about 1/2", maybe 3/4's.
You're spot-on about spacing -- woodstoves get hot!! I've since switched to a pellet stove, and there's much less space wasted around the stove.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Drywall X firewall is the type of drywall that is fire resistant. I'm familiar with cement board, but not sure if there is a specific type to use for firewall... To the people worried about insurance companies, I wouldn't let insurance companies dictate what you install in your home. The main thing is to make sure you work with your building inspector to make sure everything is properly installed. Also make sure to get signed paperwork from the inspector when the job is completed. I do enjoy having a woodstove. I think it is a personal preference thing. You just can't beat the peaceful crackling sound of a fire, while you're working those hand tools. I've even baked an apple pie on my woodstove. Bet you can't do that with a wall heater.
Most drywall has a fire rating which approximates the time that it would take for a fire to burn through the product. In my vicinity, attached garages require a minimum of 5/8" drywall, and some local ordinances require "double 5/8" for ceilings and walls that adjoin or are within 5' of another structure or property line. Depending on how your woodshop is viewed (as a business or a hobbyshop), metal studs may be required as well.
The point is to check your local building codes to make sure that you are within their guidelines. If your building or shop is not within those standards your insurance company will almost always deny any claims.
Yeah, I think your point about following your local building codes is key. A signed certificate from the building inspector, showing that the installation was done aprropriately is good insurance against your insurance company. This is a good rule to follow no matter what you are installing in your workshop - electric, heating, etc.
What do you recommend for us poor ducks that have neither a building code or inspector available?
You can always search online for a nearby community/city to see what their building code may be. Those should offer you some reasonable guidelines.
Here is a start: http://hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/installing_a_woodstove
Some manufacturers have pretty good directions as well.
In general, please make sure that you have a good double wall flue and some sort of very heat resistant material around the stove (including the floor under the stove). Your stove should be reasonably air tight as well.
Thanks Heartwould and Forestgirl,
I guess I was more considering others predicaments rather than my own. I have an outside boiler that runs on either wood or coal with inside radiant heat in the floor. This will be my second full season and, other that taking a heap of wood, is quite satisfactory. I sometimes see that fire belching out of stack and wonder if it could start a ground fire if things are tinder dry.
Edited 10/18/2008 12:02 am ET by Tinkerer3
"I sometimes see that fire belching out of stack and wonder if it could start a ground fire if things are tinder dry."
The short answer is yes, you run the risk of burning down the whole neighborhood. That's why any solid-combustion type of heating should have a spark arrester around the flue. They're pretty simple - just an exanded metal screen. The screen not only keeps buring embers in the flue, but also keeps critters from taking up residence when it's unused in the summer.
I'm pretty sure putting anything except a insulated pipe on the stack voids the guarantee. Can't imagine why.
This is the document we used when installing our wood stove (pre-pellet stove days). It has information on installation, operation and maintenance, and it has pictures! ;-)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Type X drywall is no more fire-resistive than other gypsum board. But it does have fibers integrated in the gypsum core that help hold it together in the event of a fire.
The fibers are there to prevent the fire from spreading further or faster than it otherwise might. Type X is not designed to be used as a fireback type material to decrease clearances behind a woodstove, for example.
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
I think for the average Joe it would be better to say that Type X gyp bd is no more heat resistant then any other gyp of equal thickness. It is a bit more fire resistant as you noted because it does not fall apart as fast when exposed to an open flame. This is why it is type X. That being said it does not allow a wood stove (or any other hot item) to be any closer to the wall then regular gyp. The heat can still get to the wood and set the wood on fire if the heat source is close enough and hot enough.
Doug M
Sir Lataxe is on your side of the pond and is installing a wood and sawdust burner from these folks. Maybe he'll chime in here with a bit of acquired wisdom for you.
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
~ Denis Diderot
Don,The stove is acquired but yet to be installed as the summer hoose it's going in doesn't get erected until the end of this month.My reading about these stoves dug up some aspects that may be of interest(all of which can be found on the various bits of that website of the company selling the stoves and parts):* The single skin pipe (the bit that gets hot) needs to be seperated from the nearest wall by 1/2" thick minimum fireboard mounted on 1/2" minimum battens to leave an air gap between the fireboard and the wall. The stove itself needs to stand on fireproof and heat-absorbant material such as a thick stone or concrete slab.* The double skin pipe going through the roof and/or wall needs 400mm minimum on the inside and 1000mm minimum on the outside to protect the roof/wall from pipe-heat.* Too much single skin pipe cools the gases and smoke from the fire which causes tars to form and stick, thus sooting the pipe, which will need much more cleaning and will be less efficient as the internal diameter shrinks. Bends in the chimney have a similar effect so are best avoided or minimized.* Sawdust is burnt on the top of the stove firebox and needs a flue-limiting control to stop it blazing up. (The low-set air intake control can only control normal wood fire in the bottom of the firebox).****This is still all theory to me as the stove is not yet in; but I'll be obeying these rules in the hope of avoiding any problems and getting the stove to work well, especially with the sawdust.LataxePS I,m with The Girl when it comes to heating the shed (shop). I keep my (well-insulated) shed at 10 - 15 degrees C by using a tiny electric oil-filled radiator. It's turned to 2 on the scale of 5, on the low setting. It seems to use very little juice but keeps all the tools free from condensation, which is the most important thing. This heater is on 24 hours a day, which would be impractical with a woodstove.A few 100 watt halogen lights, scattered here and there amongst the low watt variety, automatically increase the winter temperature a few degrees above the 10-15 degree background temperature when I'm actually working in there on the dark nights.In summer the heater rarely comes on and I avoid switching the halogens on too, if I work late.
Edited 10/14/2008 3:42 am ET by Lataxe
OK I will say it . . . don't burn wood there is enough of an environmental air problem without adding to it. Wood stoves were banned in Denver near where I live and the sooner they are everywhere the better. There may be some other inexpensive ways to heat your shop with less environmental impact depending on : sun in your area, natural hot water springs etc.
Here is one; insulate the hell out of your shop and use hand tools. Why does everybody hate me? I just can't imagine : )
Edited 10/14/2008 12:46 am by roc
I've been amazed at the reports here of heating a super-well-insulated shop with an electric heater (4K watts or so?). Seems if you insulate well enough, and your shop is a modest size, the electric heat can work well.
That's next on my list to try, as electricity is relatively cheap here in the Great NW. Don't be too hard on him for using a wood stove. If he burns a nice hot fire, it won't be toooooo bad. Maybe next year he can go green?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I burned wood when I was young and foolish. I say when you figure your time dink'in with every thing involved it makes natural gas look cheep. My shop is earth burmed and bellow the house. Renting. I have twin electric oil filled (not oil fired) radiators. I only turn them on about twice a year. I stay warm with long underwear and a bit O' the hand tools. But I glue up in another part of the house where it is in the seventies.I ride my bike home from work at night in the autumn and winter and gag from all the idiots burning who knows what. It ain't wood. Painted stuff? Trash with plastic in it? I can totally tell who is burning hardwood. That isn't too bad.At home when I open the windows and try to air out the house while the day is still sunny. Seems like as soon as I start getting a fresh mountain breeze. Some dufus, or several, has to fire up their wood stove down the hill and in it all comes into the house. Yah it is about forty degrees out; it isn't survival they are just being humans and they like to burn stuff and watch. A few people in the wilderness doing it and it is romantic. Tens of thousands or half a million in one city doing it and it is just foul and poisonous.Grump, Grump, Grump !Edited 10/14/2008 2:00 am by roc
Edited 10/14/2008 2:04 am by roc
If you needed to say that burning wood is bad for the environment then I need to tell you that it is actually a carbon neutral approach to heating. You see the wood that is burned absorbs carbon the
entire time that it is growing. When it is burned it releases the
carbon back into the atmosphere. It is not putting anything new
into the atmosphere. Derek
Derek,
It's true that burning wood is "carbon neutral." But woodsmoke contains a ton of particulate matter, and that's what the problem is with woodstove pollution.
Though modern stoves are much better in this regard than older ones, you're still putting out particulates.
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
The particles that are coming out of the chimney are an all orgnaic compound ( or should be as long as you aren't burning plastic, etc.) and can be reabsorbed or what ever by the earth in a short period of time. These particles are part of the regul;ar cycles of the earth. Meaning they all circulate every hundred years or so. If you are burning natural gas the emmisions are "foriegn" to our environment as the gas has been in hibernation for a long long time. Perhaps the only decent way to heat your shop is through electricity that has been generated by hydro electric dams. Oh wait, all of the land that was flooded to make that power isn't very green.
Perhaps we should hibernate, that might help.
Derek
Yeah, I agree with Dereck. The ash is great for adding to your compost pile. We're not talking forest fires here, which, by the way are natural too. Collecting wood debri on your property to recyle in a woodstove couldn't be greener. Plus you are preventing forest fires by keeping the forest floor clean. And this also prevents Lyme tick infestation. Not to mention all the free exercise you get. No electric burning exercise machines needed.
The issue with particulates from woodburning stoves is the health of our lungs. Of course, you know that I'm sure, you're just avoiding that part of the conversation. Those who have asthma (or probably COPD, other breathing disorders) are affected immediately by excessive polllution from woodburning stoves, and the rest of us are affected to some extent, whether we realize it or not.
I grew up in Southern California, breathing smoggy air and feeling the pain. The excessive smoke from a neighbor down the road creates the same feelings in my chest and throat that the smog did.
I'm not advocating a complete ban on woodburning stoves, but I do support (a) mandating stoves that burn efficiently and (b) burn-bans on days of inversion or stagnant air that traps the smoke.
Oh, BTW, the particles from humans burning fires to warm themselves are not "part of the regul;ar <sic> cycles of the earth." The existance of woodburning humans is but a blink of an eye in the history of the earth, and our activities and their consequences are hardly part of a natural cycle.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Thanks for all your comments and discussions on workshop wood burning stove, I have tried to take all of your advise and comments on board. The comments have interesting, varied and some of them quite comical
However no one has put me of proceeding with my plan to heat my workshop this way. I think (Lataxe) and I are going for the same stove. although I have not contacted the company yet to check on availability and postage/delivery cost. I would be very interested to hear from Lataxe regarding the cost of the pipe work and if he has found a reasonably priced supplier.
To date the costing I have done so far, indicate that the stove pipe cost, is twice as much as the cost of the stove
A quick comment to all my green friends out there, I too consider myself green and do as much as I can for the environment, We seperate all of our house hold waste for recycling, I have six eighty gallon compose bins on the go throughout the year and nothing that is degradable is put in our rubbish sack.
To SAVE THE EARTH, we must tackle the bigger issues first, just look on your own or neighbours drive and count the cars or the filth that pores out of industrial factories, through out the world
Somehow I don't think I will suffer from sleepless nights, when my modern workshop wood burning stove burns good clean off cuts from the work shop floor. Rest assured I will never burn old tyres, garden rubbish, green wood, plastic I have more respect for my neighbours let alone the environment.
If it of interest to anyone I will post my progress on this project, who knows there maybe someone as GREEN AS ME out there, who may benefit from all these posts.
all the best Gerry
Gerry,I see you are a stoic and a pragmatist, just like moi. :-)The cost of them greanheart woodburning stoves, inclusive of all the chimney bits et al, is high. So far I've spent £640! And this for the smallest stove. The double (insulated) SS chimney and other parts are quite expensive. The saving will be in fuel, of course, as the stove provides a means to use up the contents of all of them large offcut bags I'm accumulating. I must have 2 dozen secreted about the garden, each bag containing enough to keep that small stove going for at least 24 hours. Then there's all that sawdust, which currently goes for composting.But I still agree with The Girl and other posters that a wood burning stove is not ideal for a workshop. The heating in a workshop is as much to prevent condensation (hence rust or wood-swelling) as it is to keep the woodworker toasty. Shed heating needs to be on 24 hours a day and controllable so it doesn't get above around 15 degrees C (the best compromise for working in and keeping that condensation at bay).My woodburner will be used only when we are infesting the summer hoose that it will live in (it's then an all-year hoose with the stove and a large parafin lamp in it). The stove will be put out when we return to the main hoose after our evening sojourn or whatever. Meanwhile the tiny and thermostated oil-filled electric radiator in the shed is costing very little and keeping the tools well-preserved. I thnk a wood burner in the shed is very romantic but not nearly as practical as that radiator.Also, the radiator only cost £34.99 - about 1/20th the cost of that stove.Lataxe, rarely romantic concerning the shed but looking forward to cosy evenings in the summer hoosey wi' the ladywife, a bottle of grog and a [censored by the Taunton naughty-talk police].
Stoic and a pragmatist, if you had only added grumpy old man, you would have got me in one. In fact that's so good I think I add that to my profile.
Hello fellow woodworker, who is more in love with his summer hoosey than his shed. That's blasphemy and should not be allowed in these posts. I was so shocked by your comments,I had to leave my office and immediately retire to my new workshop and open the drinks cabinet, that's the only way I can keep warm up there till I install my wood burner. Then combining the two methods of keeping warm could be dangerous and the stove would probably have to go.
Now don't worry, I soon recovered, a large brandy and a few sniffs at a recently cut ,pile of pine sawdust and I felt like, but not looked like, I was twenty one again.
Now to business, thanks for the costings and I too am going for the smallest stove, but I hope to reduce some of those cost, as mine will be installed in a workshop not a summer hoosey. Whether that is achievable, only time will tell.
Your suggestion of a oil fill radiator would largely depend on the amount of air space you expected to heat. My workshop project started shed sized but now looks like a small bungalow down the end of my garden, its 24 ft by 16 ft with a tiled pitched roof , gable at one end and hipped roof facing our bungalow. the gable hight is about sixteen foot. I am half way through insulating the roof and ceiling. the doors and windows are double glazed and the wall are 6 inch block work covered with drywall lining ( unfinished at present )
The insulation works both ways, the shop is well sheltered and the sun does not shine through the windows till at least late afternoon. it's early October and the temperature when I start working can only be described as B/COLD. The other problem in this country as you know due to global warming, we no longer have a summer and very Little sunshine.
This is probably due to many wood burning stove, but on this one I am being selfish, I am old and I am cold and with the dreaded arthritis attacks every day, I need a warm environment to start my projects, not an insulated icebox.
The point of all the insulation has nothing to do with the temperature in the shop, I have installed it all to stop as much noise disruption to my neighbours as possible, power tools get on everybody's nerves except the person who is using them, ( roc, I know, use hand tools and ride a bike, that advise is good, as long as your hands still work and you don't have short fat hairy legs. That's one GRUMP TO ANOTHER )
During the colder months, I intend to fire up the stove late afternoon, using off cuts of the day, placing just enough wood to burn on slow burn till about 10 am the next day, and thats it. No point in heating the shop during the day and being force to open my window and let all the noise escape.
Well thanks again Lataxe I feel so much better getting all that of my chest and I hope some of my knew found green friends are happier now. They should be, I have reduced fifty percent of my foul and poisonous chimney smoke. I consider that a move in the right direction considering I have not even bought one yet.
I wish you every success with your summer hoosey and the installation of your new stove, I think you are further up the line than I. As to your coming romantic evenings, I am GREEN with envy, I would like to ask you to share the secret of your success, but it would probably be to no avail after forty odd years of marriage.
Fifty years ago, my grandfather told me to remember these wise words,
EVERY MAN NEEDS A SHED ( sorry there where no forestgirl in his day)
Now I am a grandfather myself I fully understand the wisdom in those words,
Regards Gerry
Just thought I would let everyone know, I rang my insurance company to day to ask if installing a wood burner in my workshop ( note: no garage doors ) would affect my building insurance. They were adamant it would make no difference to the policy at all in relation to future claims or premiums.
This the interesting part, they stressed I must satisfy them that the stove is installed to the manufacture's specifications. There was no request for a building inspectors certificate.
EVERY MAN NEEDS A SHED
Regards Gerry
P.S. SO MANY POSTS ON THIS SUBJECT, IF I ANSWER ALL OF THEM I WOULD NEVER FINISH THE NEW ESSEX WORK SHOP, BUT THANKS AGAIN
Gerry ,
Some areas require a permit from the city to install a wood stove , once mine in my house was installed we called the inspector out , he took a quick glance and said yup, looks good .
The wood stove store owner said he really would rather the city assumes the liability to approve installations instead of him .Following the mfgs install instructions is what's important .
Did you say you will run out the back then through the wall ? Is that an approved method ? Seems I've learned you get a much better draw when the pipe goes straight up or makes few if any turns .
dusty
Your never to old to learn , your correct I was wrong. I am now going straight up through the roof. One bend from the flue adaptor, then single skin and double through the roof. I am still struggling to locate reasonably price stove flue pipe. The quotes I have had so far are still double the price of the stove.
All the best Gerry
Do you have any online classifieds like our Craig's List over there? I see used stove pipe on Craig's List every year! Usually less than half-price of new.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I will look into that one,
Thanks Gerry
If the stove you will use specs a certain size and type pipe there is your criteria . We use metal single wall stove pipe until the ceiling then triple wall or " Metalbestos insulated pipe " made to go through a roof or ceiling .
Here the code asks for the top of the chimney or stove pipe to be at least 24" above the tallest part of your roof line .
My shop had a wood stove in it when we bought the place , but my then insurance agent said lose the wood stove and your good to go . I installed an electric furnace .
Sounds like the stove you like is a hybrid of sorts , so I can't speak with any particular experience that apply to that unit , we do heat our house with a wood stove , much dryer warmer heat then the heat pump .
Someone in an earlier post was speaking about " organic " referring to bi products of a wood stove . VOCs are at the top of the list of air contaminates , volatile organic compounds are poison by any other name , so just because the word organic is used it may not mean all is well .
warmest of shops to you
dusty, who has learned things are not always as they appear
Gerry, check out the link below. I know this will probably ruffle some feathers on "The Little Green People," but I know your on a budget and these are great stoves. Either the cast iron or barrel stoves would be perfect for a workshop, and much cheaper. The money you save on a stove can be put into more woodworking tools. I'm guessing you should be able to purchase the stove and all the materials you need for around a grand. http://www.vogelzang.com/cast-iron-stoves.htm
here in fla. we have a code for firewalls, being so no fire can immediatly burn from one office,apartments duplexes,ect to another for at least a 4 hour fire rating, we use 2ply 1/2 inch drywall and heavy mud coating, an that seems to satisfy the inspectors an insurance companies an as we all know our insurance co.'s use any an all excuses to hike rates or not insure us.maybe a surround at x distance from stove would be a solution, an or compromise for ur particular area. my question would be to floating dust settling on a very hot 1/4" stove top an edging combusting instataniously (?)
I see your point about burning in areas where the air quality is poor. But I am an ignorant man from southern Manitoba where the air is clear, even when the farmer down wind is burning the stubble from his field. I have experienced smog in Mexico city and it is gross. I suppose I thought it to be surreal as I am not used to it at all.
As for the ash created by a fire; is it not something that is absorbed by the ground? I believe it to be a good source of fertilizer.
Derek Borne
"I believe it to be a good source of fertilizer." A minor benefit of an otherwise harmful process. There is no way to make vast amounts of wood smoke be good for the environment, sorry Derek. Field burning -- have lots of experience with that, as I lived in the Sacramento (CA) Valley for 21 years. May as well have taken up smoking, LOL. You're lucky the farmer is down-wind, not up.
Rubbish and yard-waste burning is now forbidden in our area (an island in Washington state). It's a royal pain in the be-hind to have to dispose of tree limbs, etc., but it's made life here much better in the spring when we all clean up after a winter of wind storms.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Well, yeah, but one has to realize that the problem isn't what's being done, it's the amount of it. Humans have been buring renewable carbon resources for thousands of years to keep warm, cook with, scare the wild animals off, etc... with no apparent effect on the overall environment (with the possible exception of Easter Island, but again, that's a problem of too many with too few resources).
The simple (and entirely correct) statement of the problem is that there are now far, far, FAR too many humans on the planet, and the problem's getting worse - a lot worse. While theoretically everyone could stop burning fossil fuel, eat no meat and not drive anywhere, that's an unlikely result in a society with even a modicum of freedom. I've actually had someone seriously suggest that we could just go back to using horses and heating with wood, in which case the entire arable surface of the earth would be stripped bare in less than 10 years.
That said, I don't think there's any problem with someone owning a horse nor burning a fireplace, so long as there aren't very many of them doing it. Personally, I'd much prefer that environmental groups and government programs be directed toward encouraging limited population rather than vainly attempting to conjure figures showing that adopting different habits and newer technologies will somehow be sufficient. No such changes can ever hope to cope with the existing population, much less the expected increase of an additional 2 billion in the next 20 years.
Yep, population increase has been a big issue for a very long time (I wrote an article about it for the U.C. Davis student newspaper in 1969 or 1970). Unfortunately, the people inhabiting so-called 3rd-world nations feel a need to have large families. The richer you are, the fewer children you need.
Don't get your hopes up about any decrease in the growth of the world's population. It'll take more than some "encouragement" by the rich nations of the world.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I've been reading this with interest. So far I see a lot of things that discourage me. Has anyone used a furnace out of a small mobile home? I have a small shop but a high (13'5") ceiling. Previously I've been using kerosene and a ventless propane heater to heat it. (yes I know, condensation) It would be very easy to install a FA furnace on the outside of my shop. Any comments on this?
Deetles, I would guess that FA heater might work fine, as long as you have some circulation assistance that keeps the warm air from gathering up at the top of your high-ceilinged shop. My "ceiling" (loosely defined, LOL) is quite low except for the back 8' where the pellet stove happens to reside. That's where the ceiling ends, and the space goes all the way to the peak of the roof. I have a small fan mounted up there to push the rising warm air down so it doesn't get stuck and do me no good whatsoever.
Your lumber will appreciate having a lower humidity during the winter!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
The turn to environmentalism in this thread is somewhat comical and also very interesting at the same time.First off the idea that a wood burning is carbon neutral is odd. A tree's lifetime is very long compared to the time it takes to burn. If we all switched to this 'neutral' fuel, I suspect that we'd see pollution sky rocket. Calling it neutral is misleading.Not to say that I'm opposed to burning wood, as woodworkers we are overrun with scraps. Most of us use wood as efficient as we can (since we know the price), but we still end up with scraps. I suppose it's better to heat a shop with them than send them out to a landfill...The idea that something is okay as long as everybody doesn't do it, as expressed in the thread is odd. People that subscribe to this theory are hoping to justify bad behavior. In the end we all do a few small things hoping other people don't do the same, and things just continue to get worse. It reminds of the 'Tragedy of the Commons'. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons#The_commons_dilemma)
So what is your carbon free method of staying warm?
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Geo Thermal with the power supplied by windmills is about as close as they come. If you live near and can tap a hot spring, that may be better. My home is heated with Geo Thermal and I'm guessing from talking to others that the bill is about thirty dollars/mo in winter. I don't have separate meters so can't estimate closely. In the apartment business, I had a four unit house slightly larger than my home, heated with NG that I was paying over five hundred per month. Ugh.
Edited 10/19/2008 9:33 pm ET by Tinkerer3
So what is your carbon free method of staying warm?
Warm fuzzy thoughts... Yours?
Well if you want to be carbon FREE you need to do some sort of passive solar. OR and active system that gets it electricity or what not from solar sources for even Geo used electricity that had to be made someplace and thus is most likely using some Carbon. (Unless it is from a nuke plant)
Doug
I must be insufficiently warm and fuzzy. In the house it's layered clothing and the heat given off by the electronics for which we are fortunate to have hydro power. No heaters in the house since 2000. In the shop I confess to burning #2 diesel in the winter to hold 50 when I am out there working. Wood heat in the shop would probably be more environmentally friendly but it's a wooden structure built in 1926. Well seasoned in other words.
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
I don't think I'd survive a Canadian winter without heat. The house has central heat, of course on a programmable thermostat. I used to allow it to cool down to 16C in the house in the evening, but we now have two 17 month olds that aren't so good with staying under blankets.The attached garage is my shop, which I have a Natural gas heater. I upgraded the insulation and I seal the doors in the winter to prevent too much direct heat loss. I keep the shop at 13C, and only heat it up on Sunday when I'll be out for long periods of time.I'm really not opposed to burning wood, but I think calling it carbon neutral is misleading. (Regardless of what national geographic says.)
I think the carbon neutral claim is because burning the wood liberates no more carbon than was originally sequestered in the tree. It would seem the same argument could be made for oil, natural gas or coal though it can be re-sequestered much faster in a new tree.
If I had children at home or a wife I doubt I could get away with my home heating scheme.
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
"I'm really not opposed to burning wood, but I think calling it carbon neutral is misleading. (Regardless of what national geographic says.)"Burning the wood will release no more carbon than if the tree dies and rots in the woods. So in a time span of a few years it's not neutral, for a little longer it is. Burning fossil fuels releases the carbon that was locked up billions of years ago when there was more carbon dioxide in the air and the planet was warmer.
Burning the wood will release no more carbon than if the tree dies and rots in the woods.
That fair enough, but these all happen on different time scales. A fast growing tree still takes years to grow, lets say 50 years (I don't have time to look up tree growth at this time). When it dies it will take a few years for it to rot (depending on the environment). Compare this to burning where a tree would be burned in a few weeks. The time scales are completely separate.
Further the harvesting, and transportation of wood is hardly environmentally friendly or carbon neutral.
Umm, what is truly carbon neutral? Not Gas, Not electricity, not even Geo (takes Electricity) So what would you suggest?
Doug M.
Wind, solar and Hydro are all carbon neutral... Though not available to everybody.
The term Carbon neutral has been used interchangably with environmentally friendly in the media. In my view no source of energy is truly environmental, regardless of carbon content.
In the end we just use too much and use it too inefficiently. It's a lifestyle choice. We live in houses that are too big, drive cars that are too heavy (and drive them too fast), we live far away from where we work... none of these are needs, they're choices.
Hi Buster ,
" no source of energy is truly environmental "
What does that mean exactly ?
The hydro / turbine system at an off the grid Ranch locally is fed by a spring by gravity , then round and round goes the wheel and the batteries stay charged and the home has plenty of power . Without the added solar collectors yet the only time it failed was at low flow late summer last year in a dry spot .
When the solar is in the system it should work year round .
To me this system does little to the environment and this particular one was featured on the Science channel on Green energy sources .
So , is nothing really pure ? there is no such thing as organic , elements and chemicals found in fertilizer are also found naturally , and they change as they age .
regards dusty
I suggest that we should move this over to the cafe... " no source of energy is truly environmental "
What does that mean exactly ?
I was refering to energy for the masses, not one off houses. It's possible to live off the grid, if you have abundant resources, the money and patience to do it. But this is a very small catagory of people.
Hydro is typically done through dams, wind through large wind turbines, and solor through a grid of solar panels. All these have impacts on the surrounding area, as well as wildlife.
Buster,
All these have impacts on the surrounding area, as well as wildlife.
Now how can these impact the environment or wildlife? From a looks or aesthetic standpoint? If they're on yer roof? They look bad?
Hmmmmm, for the potential gain they offer I don't think they look all that bad. Hey, you can even get roofing material so they don't show. Are ya worried about seagulls trippin on 'em?
Hydro dams are required by law to provide fish ladders so the little fishies can get through 'em. Ain't no carbon being generated with these 'cept when they're made.
I don't think we'll ever completely eliminate our carbon footprint we leave behind, but I'm convinced we should try to minimize it.
On the Cafe side of things mebbe if our government (US) wasn't so greedy and spendy it might not be that way. Back in the 80s we had incentives to save energy but big oil didn't like that so our illustrious politicians took away the tax benefits........................
Oh Canada is a favorite of mine - I own property in Quebec,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Don't take me the wrong way, I'm all for 'environmental energy'. But we have to be realisitic about the availability and our expectations. I don't think any of these energies are the magic bullet that's going to save us. As well there all long term projects. If we really want to improve the environment we all have to make changes at the individual level.
Regarding solar, I'm refering to a scaled up version. Like they use in some erupoean countries. Fields and fields of solar panels... (at least on the Nova special I saw). For most urban dwellers we do not have the space on our roofs to put enough solar panels to power the whole house. However again it offsets a dirty fuel.
I think the environment issue of wind power and hydro are fairly well documented. But as with most thinsg it's a trade off.
Buster,
All these have impacts on the surrounding area, as well as wildlife.
Now how can these impact the environment or wildlife? From a looks or aesthetic standpoint? If they're on yer roof? They look bad?
Hmmmmm, for the potential gain they offer I don't think they look all that bad. Hey, you can even get roofing material so they don't show. Are ya worried about seagulls trippin on 'em?
Hydro dams are required by law to provide fish ladders so the little fishies can get through 'em. Ain't no carbon being generated with these 'cept when they're made.
I don't think we'll ever completely eliminate our carbon footprint we leave behind, but I'm convinced we should try to minimize it.
I couldn't agree more. But what I see are people trying to find new technology to save them rather than a much simple change in behaviour.
"Wind, solar, and hydro are all carbon neutral."
The truth is that wind and hydro are nearly carbon neutral but solar is a long shot from being carbon neutral. In the places where large acreage units are utilized the area is completely devoid of trees, grass or other plant life, destroying natures means of replenishing the molecular oxygen which is being depleted naturally and civilization.
Fair enough. As far as solar goes it's not a really efficient use of space... However I personally find the idea of personal panels pretty cool. The best time of year for solar (summer), is also when electric bills ar ethe highest due to Air Conditioning. It seems like a pretty logical thing to use solar to offset the power used...
Anyway this returns to my original argument. The best thing we can do it reduce the amount of energy we need. It's a choice, and we should try to make the right one.
I would agree with you if the cost of the panels was anything like reasonable. But the cost of the panels (and the fact that my roof faces east not south) means that I can not come close to justify the cost.
And frankly Solar, and Wind are in no shape at this point to replace any other form of energy. Hydro is not bad but the downside of the damns is well known (and IMHO a bit exaggerated) and Wind is close to being do able, but cost, and getting the power from where you have wind to where you need power is an issue still, and if you put the wind farm on land you have to consider the trees you don't have any more (maybe this works better in farmland) but Wind is getting there. As for Solar, we still have a LONG way to go on this one.
Doug
Cost is still a factor, and will always be a factor when considering energy. (Trust me, I know. I'm in the energy business.) That said I do support tax deductions for this type of project, as well as selling excess... Neither of which are offered where I am.
'Enviro' energy appeals to people on an emotional level. I think we care for our environment. However we seem to be in conflict that we care about our pocketbooks just as much.
I do believe that conserving energy, and finances go hand in hand very well. If I could sell you something that would pay itself off in 2-3 years, and then save you money after that... I suspect you'd at least be tempted. Technology exists, and is available at home depot. Energy efficient light bulbs, better insualtion, aluminum tape for ducting, low flow toilets... All this is incremental, and the saving may seem small but they pay off rather rapidly.
On the topic of wind, most wind projects are built in 'windy places', typically there are very few trees. South of Calgary there is a fairly large wind project that picks up wind coming off the mountains.
".......summer.............when electric bills are the highest due to air conditioning."
And you're from Calgary - Hard to believe. My air conditioner rarely comes on. I set it at 80º but the wife routinely sneaks it down to 78º. This past summer it only got up to 90º a few times so it was a rather comfortable summer.
My house is a very good passive solar heater. The back of the house as three very large windows, and they get sun in the hottest parts of the afternoon. My wife had an airconditioner installed this spring and it would start running in the late afternoon. We keep the house at 23 C (73 degrees). What can I say, I'm Canadian I like the cold.
Actually the show I was watching they were installing Solar panels in California...
But consider that a tract of land that has many thousands of trees at different growth stages. Many of the trees are in the process of of dying or have died and are rotting. To take one tree periodically and burn it over a period of a few days or weeks would have the same affect regarding the carbon cycle.
Some guy living on an acreage could probably call himself carbon neutral. Collecting fallen trees and burning them for fuel in a high efficiency burner, would probably be close to carbon neutral.
But that's not scalable, you can not apply the same ideas to a large group of homes. It seems most of the wood I see is harvested, by large machines, transported by equally large machines, split with power machines, and the burn in poor efficiency fireplaces. (We should note that open fireplaces are one of the least efficient methods of heating a home, while high efficient are some of the most efficient.)
I read a recent article which discusses exactly what I'm referring to. While burning may be considered Carbon Neutral, it isn't carbon rate neutral. A single person living off the grid probably isn't a problem. But calling it carbon neutral encourage more and more people to do this. I wouldn't want to live in a neighborhood in which people heat using wood.
In the end, the idea the wood is carbon neutral is a lie spread by big wood...
Simple really, live in Arizona and you can be as warm as burnt toast in the summer. Right now it is open the garage door, and enjoy the rest of the winter with sunshine and a recycled polarfleece shirt at most.
But it really is not carbon free, I do eat food stuffs and give off CO2. (grin)
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The idea that something is okay as long as everybody doesn't do it, as expressed in the thread is odd. People that subscribe to this theory are hoping to justify bad behavior. In the end we all do a few small things hoping other people don't do the same, and things just continue to get worse. It reminds of the 'Tragedy of the Commons'. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons#The_commons_dilemma)"
Yeah, but there are a lot of mundane examples of why a little is OK, a lot is bad. Just one example is private helicopters. So long as there are just a few, there's no issue and the average joe can go rent one with a pilot if he's so inclined. If, on the other hand, everyone had one, the skies would be extremely dangerous to fly in. But we don't outlaw helicopters (or at least private ownership of the same) just because it'd be very bad if it were possible for everyone to own one and fly it back and forth to work.
There's a heck of a lot of these examples - another one is modern medical science's near triumph over infectious diseases. For most of human history, childhood mortality was very high, and the population was somewhat stable as a result (though non-industrial farming and the available food supply is also a big factor). It's now usual to expect that every child in a 10-child family will make it to adulthood. That's great if it's you and your family, but it's also resulted in a world with billions more people than it can sustainably support. But I can't imagine someone would suggest that we stop giving immunizations and let infectious diseases take their toll to keep the population down.
The commons dilemma refers to a general downtrend of shared resources due to individualistic behavior. The damage done by one person is shared among the rest. It is often used to argue for regulation. I am personally opposed to pointless regulation, but of course see the need for it occasionally.'Yeah, but there are a lot of mundane examples of why a little is OK, a lot is bad.'Helicopters mundane? This is an extreme, and very odd example. In general flying a helicopter isn't very individualistic behavior. It should also be noted that flying is a very regulated industry. While I don't think that safety would necessarily fall, the overall quality of the experience may due to delays and other restrictions. In any case, I don't think this is something we are facing.Why not something more basic: speeding, littering, not car pooling to work, burning garbage, not mowing your lawn... All these things may seem harmless if one person does it, but lets be realistic it's never just one person. We all do things for our own benefit.As for the overpopulation comments... The solution is beyond me. It should be noted that the average number of children per family in Canada is only 1.4. I suspect that this is somewhat representative of most developed countries, which have the greatest life expectancies.
Yeah, I'm familiar with the "tragedy of the commons" tale. The point I was making is that almost any example of modern man's behavior can be considered to be an example if it's carried out by enough of the population. Just fertilizing farm fields to grow enough food is having significant deleterious effect on the world's rivers and oceans.
"In general flying a helicopter isn't very individualistic behavior."
That's why I picked it. There are quite a few private owners/flyers of helicopters, but still a small fraction of the population. Many companies have started up and failed trying come up with "personal helicopters" designed for the everyman. But if these companies actually succeeded, the result would be very bad.
I suppose my overall point is that none of the modern-day environmental crises are really honestly documented and described - it's not a problem with the individual practices, it's a problem of numbers.
Deetles,
I've been using a mobile home furnace for about 2 years now and I really like it. I made a stand for it as it pushes the heated air out the bottom. Lined the inside with sheet metal so as to direct the warm air out along the floor.
With one of those dust filters perched on the cross beams it both circulates the warm air all around the woodshop and filtesr it at the same time.
I used to lug 5 gallon cans of #2 heating oil for fuel which necessitated bleeding the line every time I switched cans (read pain in the tush). A 5 gallon can would last about a week to 10 days. Woodshop is 16' x 20' with high (12') gambrel shaped ceiling.
I have since placed a 55 gallon drum down in the garage and ran a 3/8" line up to the furnace in the woodshop. Had the drum filled by the oil guy and now I just dump the 5 gallon cans into the drum - no more bleeding the line.
One thing is to insulate very well. Installed a thermostat and I keep is set at 60° all the time. All told it costs me about $2/day and the woodshop is just right temperature wise. The furnace cost me $100 and about 5 hours installing it.
I use the woodshop nearly every day during the winter months but shut the furnace down if I'm not going to use it for more than 2 days. Best move I ever made for heat and me tools no longer get rusty.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 10/18/2008 7:11 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Thanks for the input. I see you are using oil and I was leaning towards propane but the principle is the same. Our shops are about the same size with mine having a slightly higher ceiling. I think I'll go this route and also take forestgirls suggestion and install a ceiling fan for circulation at the ceiling.
I was thinking of naming my shop "Oleo Acres" as it's one of the "cheaper spreads" <g>
Have a great day.
Deetles
I have 86 acres in western NY state that I used to live on but is now a camp. I have called it "Oleo Acres" since I first bought it in 1990. When people ask why I just tell them, "cause it's not your high priced spread" Takes some of them a while to get it. I have a regular street sign at the bottom of the road into the property that reads "Four Wheel Dr." In the winter it's very fitting. People accuse me of having a warped sense of humor but I think they are just looking at it skewed.<g>
RichThe Professional Termite
I love it!
Have a great day :-)
"Oleo Acres, Four Wheel Dr."
How cute, I have a friend that took me to his fishing spot. He has a road sign - Speed limit 60 MPH. The trail is 4 wheel drive and you couldn't keep control of it over 4 mph.
Edited 10/18/2008 10:59 pm ET by Tinkerer3
If you're thinking of a ceiling fan and use power tools in your woodshop that generate dust you might want to consider the overhead filter instead.
You get the benefit of circulating the air it gets filtered in the process. In my experience with ceiling fans they have been effective only if you leave them on all the time.
A cheap old phart always trying to double purpose thangs,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Thanks, that's a good point. I probably would have figured that out the hard way when the dust got in the finish.
Insulate. Insulate first, buy heaters second. Insulate more, buy smaller more efficient heaters.You are in Ohio, I am in Central Alberta. I built a combo garage and shop in 2003. I built the whole thing on 2 x 6 wall and ceilings. The building is 26 X 40. The garage is 26 X 26 the rest is shop except for ####2 X 6 wall separating the two.I heat the shop with a 4800 watt electric heater. It is set on its lowest setting. I keep a plastic water bottle in sight to ensure the temperature is not keeping everything above freezing. The shop (or I) warms up very quickly once I get working. I am planning a raised insulated floor for comfort and added heat retention one of these days if the world would just slow down a couple of clicks.
The garage has a single 16' door so any traffic pretty well lets any warm air out in the winter. Because of the wall thickness and insulation, the heat from the vehicles keeps the garage warm enough to prevent any water dripping onto the floor from freezing. In the summer, both the shop and garage are nice and cool.Insulation is a one time cost that has no maintenance, no operating cost and pays back every day of the year in comfort and energy savings.There is a company in the US that makes a gas /propane wall furnace that is a direct vent. This unit would keep the condensation and carbon monoxide outside. With your ceiling height you could install a nice radiant heater as well.
But make sure your insulation is as good as your can get it first!Don
Thanks for the reply.
I plan on insulating walls and ceiling. I looked into the radiant heat situation and decided against it because of cost. I know it works well(my brother-inlaw has a huge 40x60 equipment shed heated this way) but for my little shop I've decided on FA. I've bought a FA downflow 56K furnace that should do nicely. I will have to add a filtering system but I needed that anyway.
Thanks again and have a great day.
Howard
"Don't get your hopes up about any decrease in the growth of the world's population. It'll take more than some "encouragement" by the rich nations of the world."
Yeah, I agree. But the thing I find the most strange about this is that not even the most "out there" environmental organizations seem to do much talking about this, much less main stream groups and politicians. Methinks it's the "third rail" and making a suggestion that it's a problem is a no-no.
I suspect the reluctance you cite is, in large part, due to the strong lobbying of the "moral majority" of the last oh-so-many years against many forms of birth control. IIRC, the US used to be quite active in helping women in other countries with control over how many children they had. No so any longer, no goverment money goes to that kind of effort. Can't remember the details, just vague memories about when the ax fell and why.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi, I just wanted to say that I have removed the wood stove from my work shop. Even though I seem to make a lot of wood scraps and one would think I can use it to heat my shop in the winter... It ain't so. Where I live, BTW, it never gets that cold but... I don't have enough scraps to make it work. I have since put in a gas heater and that works just fine. If you want to heat your shop with wood, just be aware that your wood scraps will not be enough (unless you have a very large amount, who's to say?) For me, I didn't want to supply my shop with a large stack of outside wood but some may find it different.
In my area insurance companies are running away - fast - from any woodstove installation. Many will not insure an outbuilding that has a woodstove in it. I asked this question of several companies in my area when I was looking for another heat source for my shop.
An insurance agent I spoke to about this said that while a professionally installed woodstove is probably safe enough, it's what can happen over a period of time that can be problematic. People don't get their flues cleaned often enough and creosote builds up inside; the flue or chimney deteriorates and sparks get into attic framing; someone allows something flammable to fall against a woodstove and it catches on fire. They just seem to come with problems - avoidable problems. And because the insurance company has no control over how a woodstove is maintained, it is unwilling to take on the liability of covering it and the building that surrounds it.
That having been said, I heated my previous shops with woodstoves for years. I was careful, but still lucky that something untoward didn't occur. One other thing you need to think about is that a woodstove gets its combustion air from inside the shop. That means you can't, or shouldn't, work with flammable liquids. Those fumes would be drawn into the firebox and a fire could result. Plus, you're using already-heated air for combustion. That means "make-up" air for combustion needs to be drawn into the shop from somewhere, and that "somewhere" is through gaps in the walls, windows, and doors. Because the incoming make-up air is cold, that lowers the efficiency of the setup.
My solution is a wall-hung gas heater. I've had a smaller one for about ten years, and just replaced it (after I nearly doubled the size of my shop) with a larger unit. I just got it in the other day and mounted it and hooked it up in a couple of hours. It's an Empire 35,000 BTU input model. It was $780.00, delivered, from a place in Virginia called ACF Greenhouses. I ordered it online and received it in about five days.
The things I like about these heaters is that they are thermostatically controlled, and they vent out a sidewall. The sidewall-venting feature eliminates the need for expensive piping. Everything comes in the package, so the only thing I needed to do was supply a few mounting screws, the gas hookup of course, and cut a round hole in the wall. Compare that to about $30-35 per foot for the insulated stainless steel fluepipe you need to hook up a woodstove. The fluepipe cost can actually exceed the price of a woodstove in some cases..
But one of the biggest advantages to a wall-hung heater like this is that it draws its combustion air from outside. That means you're not sending already heated out the flue. And because it is a sealed combustion unit, the fire danger of working with flammable liquids is lessened.
Finally, it's pretty easy to walk up to the thermostat and turn it on when I enter the shop. The burner fires right away and within a few minutes things start to warm up. No lugging, splitting, storing of wood. I did that for a lot of years and it worked just fine. Now I'd just as soon spend that time and energy inside my shop working instead of burning it while acquiring fuel with which to heat the shop.
One more "final" comment: the Empire gas wall heaters have a standing pilot light. It's just a little flame that burns 24/7, ready to ignite the burner. It might sound unbelievable to say, but that little pilot light does put off some usuable heat. And it's just enough to take the worst of the chill off my shop. I can store latex paints out there without worrying about freezing (I live in southern Michigan and it does get cold around here!). So, not a bad deal all the way around...
Zolton
If you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Perhaps It doesn't really matter what we do in our workshops, homes, offices, blah blah blah. The big fact is that technology has evolved in such a way that we are now dependant on oil and natural gas. These industries make money for people. People are greedy. Take away what makes them money and then they are angry. This "problem" of "global warming" is really only what you make of it. The earth will not go on for ever as it is today. Trying to reverse these effects of warming are like a 90 year old trying to turn into a 30 year old again. It isn't going to happen. The person is going to die. Our earth is not going to turn back into something it was 300 years ago. Think how long it took to suck all of those billions of gallons of oil into the pits they are in now. It will take just as long for the carbon to diappear. Sure we could stop adding more to the mix but are any of you going to take a horse that doesn't poop to town to buy groceries that aren not packed in containers made by people who make carbon. NO!!! So heat with wood or heat with dried coew terds.
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Derek
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