I had to cut down a large elm tree last year to accomodate an addition to our cabin. The trunk at the base is about 24″ diameter. It has been sitting outside for the past year, but up on an angle and mostly off of the ground. I finally got around to cutting some nice ’round’ discs about 4″ thick to have some fun with making some end tables etc. The elm now has some worm holes visible from the outer layer (minus the bark). These are cool and not a problem for this project, but just wondering if i have to be concerned about continued munching by worms within the slabs and possibly ruining the wood while it is drying in my shop. If so, is there a treatment to be used that will end their tunneling life!
Marc
Replies
CC,
You need to determine if they are alive and kicking, and what type they are. There's been a lot written about treatments, both here and on the web.
If there's any evidence of new sawdust being produced, then they are still at work. What size are the holes? Once you've identified the problem accurately, you can pick your treatment - anything from environmentally friendly irritants to WMD.
DR
Do you have a good friend with a chest freezer? Freezing for a period of time (a week or so?) should take care of them. 24" isn't too bad size-wise, for freezing.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
forestgirl,
I'm afraid that's one of those urban legends, We have long months of freezing where the temps never get about zero and maybe as low as 40 below.. Unfortunetly we are not free from bugs, tunneling kind or otherwise..
Is it -40° inside the trees? ;-)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I'm not an expert on this since it never gets that cold where I live in Oregon, but my question is, wouldn't the tree split if there was moisture inside and it got that cold?
I know that there is less moisture in a tree in the winter, but just asking.
In my experience, the beetles are all in the sapwood, which is closest to the surface and would tend to be the coldest.
Maybe the eggs don't freeze but you might freeze and kill the worms (larva). They seem pretty tender when they are cut in half by a table saw, or rather half of them is cut off by the table saw.
Why don't you find a few of the varmits and freeze them. If they come back to life you can call Michael Jackson and make some money.
Hal
Edited 10/18/2006 3:11 pm ET by Hal J
Whereabouts in OR? I live in Sandy.
" There'll be no living with her now" - Captain Jack Sparrow
West Linn. Aren't you glad you don't live where it gets to 40 below? My wife lived in Jackson, Wyoming for a long time and she said they had two seasons there: Winter and mud.
Actually I've been there in the fall and it was beautiful.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
I lived for 20 years or so in Southern NM ( grew up in NY ) and DW grew up in phoenix.
The heat is a killer too - weeks at a time where the temp is over 100. and where temp swing from overnight low to daytime high winter or summber can be 40*
Definetly perfer OR - winters not too bad, Summers bad only for 2-3 weeks.
" There'll be no living with her now" - Captain Jack Sparrow
Where in NY?
I have been to Ithaca. My wife graduated from Ithaca High School, and we currently have a nephew on the Cornell swim team. His name is Brad Gorter. I guess he is a pretty amazing swimmer and a good kid.
What does this have to do with wood and worm holes? Not a thing! I'm on coffee break.
Hal
I am on my break now also.
Grew up in Valley Stream on Long Island - Left in 1968
" There'll be no living with her now" - Captain Jack Sparrow
forestgirl,
I suspect so although I have never crawled inside a whole tree to find out.. I do know that in the extreme cold Sap will freeze and crack with a sound like a rifle going off..
In the wild, bugs adapt to freezing temperatures that drop slowly during a change from summer to winter by modifying their body chemistry to prevent the formation of ice crystals that would damage their cells. Placing the wood in a freezer creates a temperature drop in just a couple of hours that occurs way too quickly for the bugs to adapt and they are killed. It does work, I've tried it.
John White, shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
Hey, thanks John. Now i just have to see which is bigger, my freezer or my oven.
Marc
John white,
Man I love this magazine.. the things you learn about. Now I need to check all my bugs to find out if they are wild or domestic to know weither to freeze them or not. ;-)
The domestic ones wear shoes.
John W.
"It does work, I've tried it." And your wife still speaks to you?? LOL! Ah, well, there are way worse things one could stuff in the freezer, right?
BTW, my jointer is just hummin' along. Thanks for the help way back!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi Forestgirl,
You're welcome, glad I could help on the jointer. My wife and I collect wild culinary mushrooms so our freezer is a bit on the wild side all year round.
John
John,
I used to collect as few mushrooms myself in my high school years. Wow, those were great times!
Lee
The mushies are still there, culinary and otherwise, indulge.
John
John,I just cleaned and canned about 50lbs of hen of the woods mushrooms last weekend. One cluster weighed in a 26 lbs.Jim
"There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other is that heat comes from the furnace." - Aldo Leopold
It has been a fantastic year for shrooms in Connecticut, we brought in over 20 edible varieties, a few of which were exceptonal for eating. We freeze or dry all of ours, tried salting some but didn't like them and have never tried canning although we do can vegetables.
Chickens are a favorite and we freeze them. The biggest I found this year was a cluster that weighed about 7 pounds.
John W.
Do you use a dehydrator or air dry them?
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer (1891)
We use a table top dehydrator, a stack of gridded plastic trays on a base with a small blower and a heater.
No prep other than to brush off any dirt and cut up the largest ones, no precooking or preservatives. Works well with boletes and oyster mushrooms and several others. A few types don't dry well, losing their flavor or taking on an odd taste. I would experiment with any mushroom, we have had good success with mushrooms some books said didn't dry well.
John W.
Thanks,
I have a table top dehydrator that I use for fruit, I'll stick some shrooms in it too and give it a try. The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer (1891)
John,When I was a kid growing up in Michigan, we used to pick morels by the bushel basket. Actually, my family still does, I just don't get to join in anymore. However, those we would usually dry, but after brushing off the dirt, we'd split them in half to dry.Jim
"There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other is that heat comes from the furnace." - Aldo Leopold
Marc, the odds are very good that they are alive and well. Elm is one of those woods that doesn't have much resistance to insects or decay, so there is no reason for them to not be there.
Here is a link to a site that has covered this. Pay close attention to the advice of Dr. Wengert.
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Powderpost_beetles_in_hardwood_beams.html
Thanks for the info. From the posts so far, it sounds as if there are no easy answers for this problem. Marc
Certain parts of the World / country have termites that are not subterranean, that require that the house be fumigated by tarping the whole house, then releasing a gas within. If you are in an area where that is necessary, you can sometimes call the exterminator, and ask if you can place a piece inside that is suspect. It does not cost him anything extra, and sometimes they will let you do that for free, which is not a bad idea, because goodwill has a way of coming back to you in free advertisement. since you have not posted any profile, I have no idea where you are, nor whether this will help you are not.
I am from wisconsin. Do not think termites are the issue, but could be. I have not had a chance to try and identify the pest, but will see if i can find them. What is the likelihood that if i finish these discs of elm with several coats of poly, or some like finish, that they will be suffocated, so to speak? marc
I personally don't think they will be suffocated, unless it is from the chemicals in the finish.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
PS: Won't your "discs" end up splitting from radial (or maybe it's tangental) shrinkage?
Edited 10/18/2006 2:24 pm ET by Hal J
I split the discs in half, to make two separate tables that then slide together to make one. Some i have cut with a notch or cut out that then slide and lock together. In the past i have waited for a split to occur in drying to determine where the cut should be made. Marc
That sound good.
You should post photos when you are finished.
Hal
Marc,
One other suggestion. There is a product available called Tim-Bor, it's a boric acid concentrate (white powder) that you mix with water and cover the surface of the wood with. Soak it as much as the wood will take, let it dry and then soak it again. Supposedly,When the bugs get close to the surface of the wood, they hit the boric acid and die before emerging. If you go the chemical/poison route, this is the way to go. This product is marketed specifically for the use you are talking about.Personally I would prefer not to apply poison/insecticide to anything I was making that I would have to sand or touch or eat off of, etc. A fence or arbor for my yard, yes. A table, no. But that is my opinion.
Lee
I had a powderpost beetle problem in my shop many years ago and had no trouble getting rid of all of them using no toxic chemicals.
I cut it all into pieces that would fit in my little cast iron shop woodstove, and burned them all.
Vwalla, no more beetles!
Okay, I didn't kill them all in the woodstove. Some got killed by the saw as I was cutting the boards into firewood.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
C.Cherry,
Kiln drying will kill the bugs, as the temp stays above 120 or 140 for a period of a few hours. Coating the wood with finish, even a thick film finish will not kill the bugs. Usually a bug lays eggs in the sapwood, and the larvae tunnel out after hatching (if that is the correct way to say it). Bugs will tunnel out of a finished piece just as well as an unfinished piece of wood. It's probably not termites you are dealing with, but check out powder post beetles - sounds like that may be your problem. I also doubt putting your wood in a "fumigation tent" or similar apparatus would do much good. If the pieces are small enough, you could put them in an oven for at least 4 hours at I believe 140 degrees and that will kill them for sure. Good luck,
Lee
I was thinking about the oven, but was waiting to see where the consensus was on cold, heat, chemicals or prayer. I like your idea and think they will fit. I just need to wait for a day that my wife is not home for 4 hours! Thanks Marc
If you're not opposed to using chemicals, there's no reason for you to enlist the assistance of an exterminator. Simply put each slice in a garbage bag and seal it with the pest control chemical of your choice from your local hardware store. Once the bags are opened up again it shouldn't take long for the chemicals to dissipate, and you can get away with using relatively small amounts of poison.
If you instead try the prayer method you mentioned, let me know how that works out for you.
I am not so sure that is such a good idea. I have read information from reliable sources that the normal over the counter chemicals will only treat the surface, but won't get to the ones down in the wood. Then later when you take it out of the bag, and start sanding, you will be poisoning yourself. You go first, and tell me how it turns out. K
Dayl,
I have to agree with Keith Newton, poison will only treat the surface, and do relatively nothing to kill the bugs inside.
Lee
Mapleman------If a kiln is not available, and the pieces are too big for the conventional oven, would boiling or steaming accomplish the same thing(killing the bugs).
I have a red oak log that has very small holes scattered through it-------it is a really straight grain log, excellent for riving chair parts from so the added moisture is not an issue.
I do not want to use it for chair parts and have a pile of saw dust 2 years later to sit on.
Jerry
Hi Jerry,
I'm not an expert, but I believe the temp has to stay 120 or 140 degrees for a few hours to kill the bugs. I'm not sure you could boil the wood that long without some side effects. Steaming that long is a possibility, I'm not sure if that would cause problems (can you over-steam something?) I'm not sure as I have never done any steam-bending. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.
Lee
Lee----------thanks for the reply.
I do steam bending frequently in the process of making windsor chairs. I can not tell that it has any adverse effect on the wood. I just think that, at the higher temperature (over 200 degrees), maybe a shorter period of time would kill whatever is in there. That is the theory---------but no facts to support it.
What I want to treat is spindle stock --- the thickest portion is about 1" diameter, and that is at the swell of the spindle only. The rest of it is smaller as it tapers toward each end.
Still scratching my head!!! Jerry
Another question is if they are worms or beetles.
" There'll be no living with her now" - Captain Jack Sparrow
I actually am not sure yet. I kind of assumed worm holes had worms in them:) But apparently, based on the responses to my email, most of the time the problem must be beetles. To date i have only seen the holes. When i get some free time, i am going to do a little more exploring. marc
Cherry,
I know that it is a little late in the season for this method in Wisconsin now, ( grew up near Oconomowoc) but for larger pieces of wood that won't fit in the oven you could always wrap it in black plastic in the full sun for several hours and bake the bugs that way.
Thanks. It seems like freezing quickly or heating are the methods of choice. It appears that my pieces of wood will not fit in either my oven or freezer. Perhaps if i wait until we get a good freeze here and move the pieces from inside to out, the quick freeze will not allow the critters to aclimate quickly enough. marc
Does Wisconsin still tend to have 2 weeks around the end of January or early February where the temps hover around -40 and -20 seems like a heatwave? I have many memories of those cold snaps, some that are a little less than favorable. Seems like a perfect time to catch the little bugs without antifreeze. Best of luck.
Marc----------I was faced with the same problem. My decision was to steam the pieces. Since I was using green wood anyway(riven from red oak) the moisture was not a factor for me. Logic tells me 212 degrees for 5 hours with moisture already in the wood to transfer heat should do just as good a job as 160 degree dry heat for 8 hours.
Maybe there is an engineer out there with heat transfer data that would confirm my theory.
Jerry
Thanks, i am still sorting out which method will work for me. Size still seems to be an issue, but i may do an unblinded study and try several with different pieces and see what happens. Marc
A little side lite that probably has no real value here but I remember from a course in microbiology that steam heat at fifteen lbs pressure and two hundred fifty degrees will kill all life within fifteen minutes.
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