Several times in recent years I’ve had a chance to purchase wooden boats but the press of building my timberframe home has kept me from doing it.
I now have a chance to acquire a 48foot Chris Kraft cabin cruiser from the early 50’s/ late 40’s. It has two V12 Packard engines and a on board 110 volt generator powered by the typical Hercules K engine.
Probing with a awl I can find no rotted wood nor do I detect any hogging or signs of damaged wood (except for two planks that are badly scuffed up and cracked. . While the boat is in a real need of paint and varnish it appears to be a solid old boat with only a need of TLC.
I’ve Evan worked out a storage arrangement with a farmer friend who has a old barn that isn’t currently used for anything. The trade is he gets use of the boat when I’m not using it. Since I live on a lake and already have a 28 foot Sea Ray it promises to be a large wooden boat which will require a large amount of work to simply maintain.
A major factor is that I still need to finish my house and that is at least 6 more years to go. Thus I will start on this monster of a boat at age 62 or 63.
Any wood boat builders out there care to give me their opinion?
Replies
I built a wood strip canoe, am I a wooden boat builder?
frenchy, you need this like you need two extra months of winter - -
but if ya want it, that's what money is for - -
you're more ambitious than me...
Other than the cost of hauling it to the barn my cost is almost nothing, (Kinda a trade deal for some of my junk)
However I am aware of what is involved in a older wood boat. Chris Craft used double planking as their method of sealing the boat from leaks. between the planks they put this oil based "stuff" that would last about 10 years or so before it dried up and started to leak.
If I were to put this boat in the water as it is, I doubt it would float long enough to even get off the trailer. While there are countless bottom coatings the use of them effectively seals up the bottom of the boat and shortly thereafter the planks all start to rot. Their rot causes the ribs to rot as well as the lkeel and once the keel starts to rot it's really all over.
The proper method to fix this problem involves removing all of the top layer (bottom layer?) of planks and then putting a modern sealant like Sikaflex or that 3M productover the remaining planks. Then you replace the top (bottom?) planks, rebung and put a bottom finish on.
with a 48 foot boat that's a lot of bungs to remove as well as a lot of probably rotted screws to extract.
frenchy ,
Maybe you could use the 48' boat to stack and store some of your hardwood deals , nice dry out of the way storage . You could work on it in your spare time , lol .
dusty
I'm not a boat builder, but I have a few questions:1) Does a boat like this appreciate in value, the same way a house might? I.E. if you let it sit for say 3 years and do nothing with it, would you at least be able to sell it for the same (or hopefully more) than you paid for it. 2) Would it be the sort of project you could putter around on one weekend, and if there were other demands on your time, let it sit for six months before you did additional work on it?3) A boat is entirely for recreation -- both the fixing part and the using part. With finishing the house and your regular work, do you need something like this in your life (kind of like a hobby) to balance everything else out?If I remember correctly, you're in MN, right? When I read your post, I thought of that guy who spent some 20 years of his spare time building a Viking boat -- and it became the passion and focal point of his life (in a really wonderful way). He even managed to fight off cancer until he finished the thing. Then his kids gathered a crew and sailed it to Norway to honor his memory and his effort. It seems like a great way to build on the skills you already have and pick up the other skills you need to do the restoration. So, it seems to me such a boat could either be an albatross around your neck, or a great source of inspiration and delight. Only you can decide which it would be.
I can only answer your first question ( or try to). Your house will increase in value much faster then the boat, if the boat does at all. The things that will hurt the boat is being out of the water and the wood drying out and the lack of use of the engines will cause the seals and so on to dry out as well.
What makes real estate go up in value is the finite amount of it. There is only so much of it and very little will be made to increase that amount. There is a set amount of land in wich to build houses on. A well built house can last for many centuries, just take a look at many of the houses in europe and even some here in this country.
I hope that this 2 cents worth will help you make your dicision. What ever your dicision is all the rest of us can do, for our own reasons, is eather agree or disagree with you on it.
Dane
Wooden boats are appreciateing slightly, ever so slightly. They still aren't worth the cost of having one professionally restored yet so it is still strickly a hobby rather than a profitable enterprise.
The fear is that with a boat this size if something were to happen to me it basically becomes junk. I can think of no rational person who would take on a project of this size if it were taken apart and left unfinished.
While it would have some value if finished, Perhaps $50,000.00 simply in materials, suppplies and plating alone I can expect that we are speaking of $20,000.
Interesting that you should mention the guy who built the viking ship.. His source of wood for that ship was the sawmill that I buy all my wood at... they have an almost complete set of photo's of the progress from rough sawn wood to finished boat..
Frenchy, I have built a strip built kayak and am now building a 21' power launch, the latter hopefully to be finished in about 6 months (total time about 2 1/2 yrs). Don't profess to be an expert but I have been interested in wooden boats for years.
A 48' boat is A LOT OF BOAT!!!! Several suggestions! A wooden boat that has been sitting out for years is going to need more than paint and varnish. I would suggest having a professional surveyor look at the boat; paying a few dollars now to find you may have a major problem could save money and effort in the long run. For example, if the engines are seized, you may have to replace them or if frames are rotted you could be in for some major work. There are some good wooden boat surveyors around the Chesapeake if you don't have them in your area.
A good source for info is the Wooden Boat Magazine online forum, similar to Knots. There are a lot of boatbuilders on there: http://woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi and you can get some good advice. Also, they may know surveyors in your area.
I enjoy building boats and thought a 21' boat would take 1 1/2 years but it is a lot longer. I can't imagine starting a 48' boat restoration but go for it. Make sure that farmer doesn't need his barn for at least 5 years and he shouldn't expect a ride in the boat until then.
Good luck and enjoy!
Part of the appeal of this boat other than it's solid no rot condition is the unique power plants. As I said they are Packard V12's but they look more like the Allison V12's they used in P38's and F40's They have that same single overhead cam type valve cover and the 24 exhaust ports of a Allison, but the valve covers clearly say Packard on them as well as the ID tag on each one. Bizarrely they have a Navy Buno tag on them so at one time the US Navy owned them.
It's impossible to tell if the engines are seized and even if they were it's still relatively easy to rebuild an engine like this. I've rebuilt far more unique engines and finding parts is just part of the process.
The barn has no real use since the farm land has been sold off and I'm certain that if I keep the roof on it I can use it as long as I like. Currently the roof is solid and doesn't leak but in 5 or 10 years who knows? The only real negative is it's over an hour drive away.
I'm not a boat builder, but from what I understand, Chris Kraft is like the premier name in wooden boats and is worth a lot and very desireable to collectors. Pick up "Wooden Boat" magazine--you'll sometimes see old Chris Kraft's advertised for sale and they aren't cheap. If you find later that you don't have time or inclination to fix it up, I'll bet you'll be able to sell it to a collector. My feeling is that it will appreciate more than your house. Wealthy people always seem to have money for luxuries, whereas if you try selling a mderately priced non-luxury item you are more at the mercy of the economy the day you want to sell. I'm not being very clear, but it's early and I've only had one cup of coffee.
Well I've owned a Chris Craft wooden runabout in the past . a 1947 model 17 foot Riveria with the KBL engine. While today's price for one in nice condition would be in the mid 20's that would reflect about 60% of the cost of a professional restoration. (the cost of the boat would be extra)
If you are thinking about value when you are considering a wooden boat, quit while you are ahead.
Wooden boats are all about LOVE. You love sailing/cruising in wood versus plastic, you love the look and you love the feeling like you are cruising around in the early 50s. You love showing your boat to other wooden boat affecianados. You love how it gets the babes...
They say that sailing is like standing in a cold shower, fully dressed, tearing up $100 bills. It's the same with wooden boats, it just takes a lot of time for boat upkeep between those showers.
Paul,
You've hit the nail on the head my friend. Love is what drives a reasonably sane person to tackle a project most run away from.. Sure isn't money!
At very best I could expect maybe $50,000 from the sale of a boat like this but I fully expect to spend $20,000 just on paint/varnish/supplies and material.. (and when I'm in love with an idea my estimates tend to be less than 1/2 of reality)
As for attracting babes, I don't know of many babes who seek overwieght guys in paint spattered clothes who's idea of a good time would be to sand and revarnish the railing.... Or who's conversations deal with Varnishing techniques....
Nah, you'll have to do better to talk me out of this one.. I'm already itching to rip apart those Packards and see what sort of condition they're in.. Anybody know of any good on-line sources for parts for World War 2 Allison engines?
I'd have to second the advice on getting a survey. There can be quite a few places that a pro will see that you and I may not. At least you don't have to park it at your place which makes the rest of us jealous. Wood boats need yearly maintenance. There are a lot of boats out there that have taken a beating from the hurricanes, flooded engine compartments for one thing. We all know most boats are holes in the water into which you throw money. Have you priced marine paint? You won't be able to trailer that one. I sure would be tempted but my landscape is already littered with a boat, motorcycles and cars that await restoration. A new shop and additions are slated for this spring. If only I didn't have to work for a living.
Obviously you are like the rest of us. Your sense of reason has left and gone away. Even under cover, the boat will be plagued by humidity, bugs, rodents, animals and you'll never get your money back even when restored. Of course you will have hauling fees, slip rental, insurance, registration. You probably don't even get the Sea Ray out much. Your house isn't finished you probably have a hundred other projects and you ain't getting any younger. If your area is anything like mine, there are so many morons on the water I'd rather take my canoe to a remote pond than deal with the circus. But who said reason has anything to do with it.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
What's a survey gonna tell me? I know the wood isn't rotted, (it took me over three hours to confirm that,) the engines are out so I expect they need overhauling and Just finding parts will prove to be a monumental task. (my best guess is they are old PT motors since I'm certain that the old PT boats used Packard V12's)
It's not hogged or sway backed and those hercules K engine are commmon as combines (in fact that is the best source of parts for them, old farm equipment dealers) So what if the generator will need a rewinding or the bushings need replacement. In fact I doubt there are very many guys out there who do professional survey's who are that familar with a boat this old (it's got to be 50 plus years old.)
But all that said you are absolutely correct in that I'm nuts, plain certifiable for even thinking about taking on a project like this. On a good year I might get 10 hours on my Sea Ray and that sits at the end of my dock with the key in the ignition and booze in the bar. Going out consists of removing the cover and taking off the lines. Yet it's 10 hours at best!
The only reason I can imagine to do this is the burble that you hear as those big Packards idle on the dock. Maybe the smell of fresh varnish with sun glinting off it. Or the wiff of 115/145 Av gas. (it sure won't be when I throw up from paying for that same 115/145 Av Gas which last I priced was well in excess of $15.00 a gallon and that was over a decade ago.) I never saw where the gallonage was listed on either of the fuel tanks but I doubt they are much under 100 gallons each. My best guestimate would place them at 130 gallons a tank.
Right now I'm capable of hauling my Sea Ray myself (it's only 28 feet longand 8 wide) but this monster would require an over width permit and probably an over length permit as well. If I left it tied up to my dock, I could expect that in the fall I'd have to strip all the varnish off and start over. Yet just putting it in after dealing with the sealing issue would be a three day affair since that is the minimum you would expect to soak the hull for it to stand a chance to seal up.
Yeh, I knew I was nuts to consider this.. makes no sense whatsoever, ..... Wonder what I should name her?.......
Frenchy,You have got to be the luckiest guy alive. Maple for $1.15/bf and a almost free CrisCraft. Let me know when you pick her up. I love old wooden boats (I like new ones too). I might even bring a brush and a couple gallons of spar varnish if you ask nice. I didn't realize that the new timber frame was on a lake. Which one? Sounds like even more incentive to come get a tour, I'm not far from you.
Scott,
Lake Minnetonka, Carmens bay at Casco Point. But you aren't helping me. I despritely need to be talked out of this foolishness. An offer of help only encourages me.. Remind me of the language I 'll use as I attempt to remove rotted screws from the planking. Tell me about the hundreds of hours of sanding in order to get it ready to take the first coat of paint in decades..
Best of all look up the price of 115/145 av gas and multiply it by say 260 gallons. I wonder how many gallons per hour those old Packards use at full throttle(anybody know what the PT boats used per hour?)
Frenchy,Your right, its to much work. Send me the name of your buddy and I'll call him up to get it off his hands. ;) Maybe he'd like my old Hobie Cat for a trade.It will be a tremendous amount of work, but there aren't many of those old beauties left, and I think that there are even fewer people willing to take the challengeto restore a very important part of our maritime history. If you won't take this challenge will you help me raise the Edmund Fitzgerald instead?I'm down in the way Southwest (Belle Plaine), about halfway to Mankato for you on 169.Scott
You sly dog you!
you know the way to make somebody want something is to have them claim it for themselves. (kinda a reverse tar baby deal!)
Belle Plaine huh? I know that town pretty well. In fact the barn is near New Germany. Maybe I will be able to get some help from you in the restoration process,... <G>
I'll be there 30 minutes after you tell me where the barn is. Which mill do you go to? The two I've been to up here aren't worth remembering. I've been pretty disappointed in the selection and quality of lumber since we moved up here.
Scott,
Johnson Brothers logging on highway 52 just south of Cannon Falls. It's on the west side of the freeway a few miles south of Cannon Calls. Try to speak with Connie if you can, he's far more reasonable to deal with than his son or his grandson Seth. The bargins are always in wood that has been ordered and not picked up.. Prices are still way below wholesale for even custom sawn wood so if you need something really bizzare you can still get it at very modest prices..
Now realize they don't like to deal in less than a couple of hundred bd ft. so if you just need a few pieces of wood it probably won't be worth the trip.. Let me know when you want to go and I'll try to meet you there and introduce you..
Frenchy mate,
How can I put this without offending you?................
Your Crazy!!
And a glutton for punishment.
You have a massive house 6 years of hard slog from being finished. Already have a boat that sees your bum in it for 1 day outa a whole year, tops. A bunch of old cars that likely dont get a whole lotta work or bum on seat time either. Now ya wants to get this thing?
Reality. It WILL cost you a heap. You WONT get to do any work on it for years.
You also have the largest nads of any man I ever knew. If I had half the stuff on the go that you do, my missus woulda stabbed me to death long ago.
One plus though.........TWO V12's. Ooooooooohhhhhhh
Ya still wont get to fire them up for about 20 years though.
However, you could use it to haul that black walnut raft down here. I been going down to the beach each day to see if ya had arrived yet. Was starting to wonder if you had forgot to take a paddle and was doing it by hand.
:-)
Everything, 100% of it, depends on how you look at it.
DW
If those are Packard 4M-2500 engines they are the same as used in PT boats. They weigh about 3000 pounds. Run on 100 octane which goes for $3-$3.50/ gal. I don't think you can get 145 anymore which is what you would need if they are RR merlins. The PT's ran three Packards. At full throttle they suck about 475 gal./hr. Yours might only use 220 gal./hr. at half throttle. A half day cruising the lake would only cost about $2000 if you took it easy. I bet they would sound sweet when you put the pedal to the metal. Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Thanks Hammer,
yeh, they look like they could weigh that much.They are much larger than the usual M or MBL engine Catalina's are normally equipped with They don't have the Rolls Royce logo anyplace on them so I know they aren't Merlins but didn't the P38 and F40 both require 115/145? I know that both the P38 and F40 used Allison motors and I also remember reading that Packard made the Allison engines. I just can't imagine them doing another 12 cylinder casting for a similar sized engine.
Wish I had more data...
The exhaust manifolds have the usual Chris craft castings on them same as the usual Hercules. But this is the first time I remember any Chris craft engine that didn't have the Chris Craft logo on the valve covers... (even the Chevy engines they used later all had Chris Craft logo's
As for 115/145 I know they must use fuel like that for the Reno air races, Those Merlin are making over 5000 hp and you couldn't do that on 100 octane fuel...
This boat isn't your usual 48 foot Chris Craft Catalina, in that every Catalina of that age I've seen has a pair of M engines, while a rare few were equipped with the MBL option. These engine are much further forward than the M engines and they drive off of V drives rather than straight.
Everything looks original except the head and galley are much further forward than I remember and the aft cabins have this weird step over access to them. The engines sit between the head/galley and aft cabins rather than over the engines in the normal method you find Catalina's Plus the forward saloon is much smaller than I remember.. (been about a decade since I last looked at any Catalina's of this age)..
The 4M's have a rev limiter. They shut down if you hit 2500 RPM's. These guys in Mass. rebuilt a Packard, maybe they could tell you what to expect. I think the 4M's are supercharged and have 48 valves, can't be your average rebuild.
http://www.jandm-machine.com/Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
<<What's a survey gonna tell me?>>
A good surveyor, particularly one knowledgeable with wooden boats, should be able to point out the problems one doesn't readily see or are obvious. I don't know about you but I usually never get into trouble with things I know about, it is the things I don't know about that have always gotten me into trouble. Even though I have had some experience with wooden boats, I would never take one on without a KNOWLEADGEABLE surveyor looking at it; a surveyor with only fiberglass experience is worthless. Also, there are particular problems with certain types of boats that these surveyors (if they are good) know about that are not apparent even to the experienced boater. I had that experience with a guy who looked at a boat for me some distance away and for $250 I learned a lot about the particular problems with that make and saved way more money than he charged me by passing it up. Even a phone conversation with some of the more knowledgeable (doesn't cost anything) can produce good results. In most nautical communities, surveys are routine with most boat sales.
Frenchy, I think I hear "passion" in your voice and "reason" just can't trump "passion". Go For it! Just keep in mind, a furniture project or house project can't sink with people on board.
Yep!
you're right! passion has a firm grip on me, please talk me out of this insane Idea!
Regarding having a survey done, why would you want to deprive me of the fun of discovery? To me the critical issues aren't regarding the common things, heck if this were a common Catalina I wouldn't be interested. I've seen too many with a bunch of rot that are best used for parts and a big bonfire. Passed on a lot of them!
I don't really need anything this big anyway, I was actually looking (sort of) for another 17/18 foot runabout like my earlier one. (look at page 139 of The Legend of Chris Craft for a picture of my previous one)
However with a pair of Packard V12's and totally rot free I'm excited.. Listen to those V12's at idle will you? 4 six inch brass exhaust pipes, burbling, spitting out water and having that little echo sound only Chris Craft knows how to make.
V12's sound like they are doing 1200 rpm when they are only turning over at 500 because of all the cylinders firing and with twin engines it's gonna be even busier! Imagine if you will sitting out on the dock on a warm summer day with those twin V12's barking along at 2350 RPM (maximum if I recall) it'll sound like a pair of World War 2 fighters strafing the deck.
Darn it, that passion is back! Help me please!
Anyway regarding the need for a survey, a good survey will do two things inform and judge. I'm willing to compare my knowledge of Chris crafts with most, Since I see almost no 48 foot Catalina's around I suspect anybody that has a lot of experience with them is long past retirement, if my guess as to age is correct then that boat is over 55 years old. They continued the 48 foot Catalina line until 1950 and then went longer with optional diesels.
As to judgement, well I give up there, my judgement is clearly clouded by the V12's in it (or more accurately next to it)
In fact I already know what any knowledgeable surveyor will tell me. That it's going to be a giant white elephant. impossible to find parts expensive to restore and needing constant maintenance.. When I go to sell it I'll need to find another fool as crazy as I am.. thus there is every opportunity to lose a big chunk of change.
What you need to do is explain to me (like you would to a dog in heat) why I shouldn't consider this. Help me please! The more impractical it seems the more I lust after it.
<< What you need to do is explain to me (like you would to a dog in heat) why I shouldn't consider this. Help me please! >>
Frenchy, because of the futility of the thing, I have never wasted the time trying to dissuade any dog in heat from pursuing the behavior in which they obviously want to engage. That being said, as I read your posts you seem to focus more on the (passionate?) sounds of those engines than the boat itself; therefore let me suggest the very practical solution of rebuilding the engines, making a platform on land from which they could run (and be heard by you), and burn the boat.
If I could find a boat like that for really cheap, even if it were just a pile of sticks I'd buy it just so I could have those V12s sitting on stands in my garage. Restoring the thing could be a colossal amount of work, though...since you have a place to keep it out of the weather until you have time to work on it, it does sound pretty tempting.
Since you're on Minnetonka I'm sure you're familar with some of the people in the antique boat club (for those people reading this who are not from Minnesota, we have a LOT of boats up here, and there's a pretty large contingent of antique boat owners.) Maybe one of those people could give you some advice on this thing (or maybe help convince you to run away as fast as you can!)
Another possible source of information may be one of the shops around that buy/sell/restore old wood boats. One I know about is Mitch LaPoint's place at http://www.classicboat.com (as an aside, thirty years ago Mitch LaPointe was one of the world's best water skiiers.) I just looked at his website and he has nothing quite as large as this one in stock at the moment, but there is a picture of a 33' Chris Craft that sold for $45k.
I've always loved wood boats, but I've never had the time or energy to maintain one. I've been thinking about finding a 50's or early 60's vintage fiberglass boat, maybe something with tail fins...my neighbor drug home a 1959 16' Luger runabout, complete with trailer and a McCulloch outboard a couple years ago. He spent a couple weeks cleaning it up and it came out looking pretty good, and outside of servicing the motor now and then it's pretty much maintenance free.
hi frenchy --you are a man after my own heart. i have read this thread with interest, as this sounds like something i will do after i retire (wait, did you say you are retired ? . . . oops, forgot already!)an idea occurred to me just now -- since it's going to be so much work, what about contacting a local college or industrial arts school or even a high school -- you might be able to find some young kids to help out with the work.or maybe you could post an ad for "intern wanted" -- or "part-time apprentices wanted" -- you never know what's possible, and maybe some young whippersnapper will have the energy and the interest to do exactly what you plan to do -- only he's planning to do it for pay someday. just a thought. overall, my motto in life is: if it makes you happy, and not too crazy, do it. if it doesn't hurt anyone else, all the more so.
i say -- if you have people in your life who understand that about you (that don quixote, lover of lost-causes, mountain climber spirit i mean) then you're all set.best of luck!
cheers
philip
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