Hi Guys,
I’m thinking about changing my shop over to square drive screws and am interested in hearing people’s opinions. Actually, my experience is that those people who like them, really like them, so I’m more interested in those people who’ve tried them and found them wanting.
Thanks for your input.
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Replies
In Canada, the square head screws are known as Robertson screws. They tend to be the only ones available at the hardware store. I used them all the time and have found them indispensible. They have very good grabbing power without rim-out. I don't understand why they are so difficult to obtain in the U.S. The Phillips screw tend to rim-out more often than not.
the only place I wouldn't necessarily use them is in very high end, visible applications, like butt hinges in furniture, for example. Then again, I might.
Everything else, fer dang sure; they are absolutely the best screw design around IMO. I also use a fair number of Posidrives, which are many times better than a Philips, even though they look similar. But the Robertsons (invented in Canada, 1907 or 1908), are better.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Robertson screws were invented in Canada & it is my understanding that the inventor's licensing agreement stipulated that all Robertson screws must be made in Canada. The beauty of the Robertson screw is that the square socket is tapered to match the taper on the Robertson screwdriver. When the driver is inserted, the tapers lock to a tight fit, virtually eliminating cam out. The driver/screw combination can even be held out horizontally with an outstretched arm to place that screw in a practically inaccessible spot between cabinets.
The square drive screw has a parrallel sided socket which does not fit like a Robertson, does cam out, and cannot be held out horizontally. Unfortunately these are now showing up here in Canada in the big box & other chains, making it difficult to enjoy one of the joys of woodworking in Canada, Robertson screws.
Paul
I would suggest that before you switch to square drive try a torx drive. Square drive don't tend to strip out while inserting the screw but will strip qiute easily when you back out a screw. Torx are a little more expensive, but once you use them nothing else will do. Just pick up a couple and try them out. They come in a wide variety of drive sizes - T10 thru T30 for wood screws.
My 14.4 PC will drive a 6" T30 into doug fir with no pilot, no stripping and not much pressure behind the drill. This might be useless info for what most people in this forum would need but it gives you an idea how easy they are to use.
Dave
My first job after graduating from college was as a mobile home manufacturer's service repairman. It was the most depressing gig ever! Anyway, if nothing else I got loads of experience with square drive screws. To my knowledge, this was before they were readily available to the general public, but it was the only drive head this particular mobile home manufacturer used. After a few months fighting the square drives, I began installing Phillip's head screws to replace the square drive heads when something needed repaired (virtually every component of the mobile homes had screws). It didn't matter whether I was installing or removing screws, they(square drive) stripped either way, but worse than the screw heads stripping, the drive bits rounded over much easier than any Phillip's drive bits that I had experience with.
I drove alot more screws with this job than a than a typical furniture maker would ever install, so perhaps the durability issues I describe would not be a factor. This is just what my experience was, and it was a vast amount of experience at that!
Don't put them where they will get painted over...........no fun trying to dig them out under fifty coats of paint.
I use square drives and like them, much better than philips. At the JLC show last month I tried the torx and they are GREAT. When I'm out of my Square drive I'm movin to TORX.
It is all I us. Then again it is about the only screw that I can buy at any of the hardware stores. I never have a problem with any of better wood screws stripping out but some of the screws made with the cheaper metal tend to strip out if you are driving them into to hard wood.
Scott C. Frankland
Newfoundland Wood Worker
Does anyone know if the square drive screws sold by McFeeley are the same as the Robertson screw? It's my understanding that not all square drive screws are created equal, but don't know if that's fact or legend.
Although I'm not as well-versed in screws as some of my esteemed collegues, I can vouch for McFeely's in saying that they provide top-quality service and quality in their products. Generally, in my area, you basically have the choice of either unknown-origin phillips wood screws or drywall screws. Even deck screws here are of questionable quality. I've been ordering from McFeely's for a while now, and have never had a problem with bending, breaking, camout, or coating loss on any of their products...even years after installing exterior galvanized McFeely's, they continue to look good and not rust...not at all what I can say about screws from the local big boxes.
I used them primarily for face frames but I recently bought some Woodys Grabbers and I love them. I think Im gonna start switching to square drive for all my screws. Im getting ready to order a bunch from McFeelys.
Curse you phillips drive and flat tip screws curse you I say <G> Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
Ron, we can't switch.... ! We have to keep the folks that make screw extractors in business. LOL.Steve - in Northern California
I use robertsons all the time and i think they're great. using a cheap bit can also roound out the drive socket, which isn't fun when you go to replace the screw. sometimes philips work great, but i don't like usign them in hardwood at all.
I use the square drives from the Kreg Jig folks and find them superior to the no name square drive washer heads from Rockler. I also have good luck with quality phillips screws like the Supersinkers. I've stripped and snapped both kinds trying to overdrive them in hardwood when I should have drilled a bigger/deeper/or any pilot hole. The combination square/phillips (Spax) screws do offer a unique compromise between production speed and user friendliness for the customer. I only use slotted screws where esthetics require them. Using straight bladed gunsmith or old-style screw drivers vs. tapered screwdrivers makes a huge difference.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
The history of Phillips and Robertson are briefly outlined in this link:http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blscrewdriver.htm
The story I've heard why the US uses Phillips is that Phillips worked closely with Henry Ford to improve the assembly line operation. Apparently Ford was faced with a choice of the newly invented Phillips product made in the US or the Robertson from Canada that had been in service of 25 years or more. Henry Ford's decision was supposedly based on patriotism and he went with Phillips and air guns equipped with Phillips bits.
One product I do like that is square drive are the trim screws - those 3 inch screws can do a beautiful job with room trim moldings.
I work with old furniture or reproductions so I'm still searching for good old slotted head screws - most are now plated which means I have to acid strip them - no big deal but good old fashioned steel #10 inch and a quarter flatheads are getting scarce. Stock up before it hits!
>> Henry Ford's decision was supposedly based on patriotism ...
The story I heard was that Ford chose Phillips because of the cam-out. It made it much more difficult to over drive screws on the assembly line and reduced training costs because it was fairly easy (in that application) to seat the screws to the right depth.
Sorry I can't cite the source. Read it somewhere in the last 42 years.
Believe it or not a whole book was written on this subject, "one good turn" by Witold Rybczynski.
This is an excerpt from a review done on the book which can be found following the attached link.
"The effort to find a superior head is an interesting story in its own right. From 1860 to 1890, the author discovered, American screw manufacturers explored numerous solutions, including magnetic screwdrivers and double slotted screws.
In 1906, Canadian Peter Robertson hit on a head design with a square recess that is still a favorite among many woodworkers. The Robertson head, however, is only standard in Canada.
The Phillips head emerged as the choice of the international community. Henry F. Phillips, a Portland, Ore., businessman and former traveling salesman, hit on the idea of an X-shaped socket head. It was initially rejected, but eventually accepted by the American Screw Co., which persuaded General Motors in 1936 to use the Phillips-head screw in manufacturing Cadillacs."
The auto industry soon embraced it, setting the stage for even wider acceptance during World War II. Automakers liked the fact that there is a degree of cam-out or slippage inherent in the Phillips design that allows automated screw-driving machines to pop out once the screw is tight.
http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/2000/09/14/p19s2.htm
Hi Kim,
The best of square and phillips drive is the so called "square-X" drive screws, a combination of both. You can use either a square driver, the correct size phillips bit, or a special square-X driver that holds the screw head so tenaciously that I can put a screw on the head of an unmagnetized bit to then place and drive it accurately. The head of square-X screws is marked with an X that crosses the phillips slots.
Hafele and others sell SPAX brand square-X, and Hafele's "confirmat" screws are square-X.
Hope this helps.
Gary
Gary,
Aren't these more commonly refered to Pozidrive?$ Bill
I don't think square-x and posidrive are the same. Hafele catalog lists the Spax as a "Uni-drive = Square/Pozi," in other words, a combination of the two. But I'm not a screw expert, and I may be wrong.
Hi Kim
I really like using the GRK (torx) in most applications,We use a lot of the finish head grk's and I must say if one is careful in predrilling they are the nuts.square head is not readily available in my location I have used them however and like them,it was a matter of availability for me that I went for the torx.
Rick- adesigns
RJT,
We assemble 95% of our 3/4-maple ply, Euro carcases with 2-in-long confirmat screws - four per base cabinet joint and two or three per upper cabinet joints. We learned to shoot a straight hole, and we don't use the spring loaded gizmo the screw dealer tried to sell us.
Gary
I just ordered 20 different sizes of the brass plated square drive screws from McFeely's. http://www.mcfeely.com Everything from 3/8" #4, up to 2" #10. I love them.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy
PlaneWood
Richard,
You must be asking about #8 Spax screws. You can get them, as well as confirmat screws, from Hafele (800-423-3531). I happen to buy most of my fastenings from another wholesaler, MacMurray Pacific, in San Francisco (415-552-5500).
Gary
Edited 5/8/2002 10:12:29 AM ET by Gary Weisenburger
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