I glued up a cabinet last night with standard Titebond yellow glue. Tiger maple and some plywood were the materials. Does the joint gain strength if I let it dry, while still clamped, for more than 24 hours? 24 hours is my usual standard. Glued up in my garage in Connecticut. Temperature probably in the 50’s all night.
Dave
Replies
If in clamping you are creating some bending or twisting stress that you hope will be retained with glue, then you're probably right to let it sit overnight before unclamping.
But in my experience glued joints that don't have any unusual stress in them are plenty strong after 1 to 2 hours. In my university shop 2 hours is the maximum anything stays clamped, because there's always the next class that needs the clamps. And we've never had any problem with joints failing, so long as they were well made and adequately clamped for that short while.
4DThinker
Excellent response. Thank you!
Finky, I'd be more concerned about that low temperature than being overly cautious about the drying time. In my dulcimer making I glue up a lot of bent ribs where the joint is perpetually under some spring-back stress. While I typically let these glue-ups go over night (12+ hours) I've discovered I can take them out of the clamps and jigs savely in about 6 hours. I use Titebond I, as opposed to the traditional hide glue, but I think my gluing time frames are what they are because my basement shop temperature never varies outside of the 68F-72F range. I keep a "weather station" in my shop and monitor these climatic issues (including humidity) daily. They get to be very important in instrument making, when only minor wood distortion, gluing problems, or finishing problems can really screw the works.
...But then, just like in air drying lumber where you can't keep the boards on stickers too long, because it will never get too dry...the same holds true for how long you keep a glue joint under clamps. The glue will never get too cured.
finky
Agree with Mr. Arno. I think the glue is dry after about two hours in my shop, but I usually leave it for about 12 hours as I get in no hurry. What Jon said about the temperature is important. I'm in Altanta and the temp outside now is 70. Even when cold the temp stays around 65 degrees in the shop. I think this leads to shorter dry times as it would with finish.
BTW, I use the Titebond Extend in most large applications as it gives me an extra 7 to 10 minutes of work time.
Good Luck...
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Titebond Extend? Is that the name on the package? Where do you find it?
As a beginner, I'm finding myself facing glue-ups with more and more trepidation. No matter how many dry-fits and clamping sequence rehearsals I do, and no matter how cleverly I try to "sectionalize" my glue-ups, I find myself almost panicking when the glue starts to go on.
I use original Titebond, and just never seem to have enough time to spread the glue evenly on all the mortises and loose tenons, put pieces together, wipe up the glue spill (*someday* I'll figure how much glue to apply), clamp, and then adjust the "squareness" of the whole piece.
An extra 10-minutes would be heavenly.
-M.
MarkH,
I bought some of the 'extend' stuff...and it does give you more time. What I don't like, however, is the blackness on the wood when it dries. It's kinda thin and I suspect it has a lot of water in it...
I have always struggled with some of the issues you mentioned. I have had better luck recently using my TS during glue-ups. It provides a flat surface and, of course, the fense is pefectly perpendicular...I can attach another perpendicular cleat very easily with clamps. Clean up could be an issue...but a sheet or two of newspaper put down first works fine. I don't leave the project drying on the TS...just the initial glue-up..and then move it off.
I used Elmers yellow glue for years and will never go back after using Titebond, so much more workable. Should have listened to all those ads about 2 out of 3 WW's. I rarily remove from the clamps in 2-4 hours, sits overnight or till the next session.
Like BG, I do almost all of my glueups on an old 3/4" 4x4 ply on top of the TS. Nice and flat, 3 side access, can be positioned as needed (hanging off one side or the other), rotated, clamped to the TS if needed, and clamp the project to it. I have 4 12" and 2 24" framing squares and several accurate ply scraps that regularly get clamped to the project too. We all know you can NEVER have too many clamps.
I monitor my temp and humity too, but in a detached garage that is only heated and AC as needed (in use) it can be tough. To think of all the kerosene I've used after I've left the shop for the night just too keep the project warm while drying, jeese.
Enjoy, Roy
Mark
I get the Tite-bond Extend (yes, that's the name on it) at Highland Hardware. I have never seen it local else-where.
http://www.highlandhardware.com
I have not had the problem of turning the wood black as BG mentioned. I scrape most everything after glue-ups anyway. I haven't had a problem yet with it being thinner. I suppose time will tell on that issue as I have only been using it for 6 months. I will post a pic of a project held together exclusively with it at the bottom.
BG and Roy have given you some good ideas. I use assembly tables which are flat and I set my Jorgy Cabinet-Masters up in advance for the final closing of the clamp.The Cabinet-Masters support themselves and can be used one-handed. Have everything needed at hand and you might consider a dry run to see if a problem needs to be addressed before you get a surprise.
If it is a very complicated glue-up, get someone to help if possible and re-hearse with a dry run. If you are don't have dead-lines, you might also consider doing the glue-up in stages. I use one of those little horse-hair brushes you can throw away. I don't throw them away though. Water cleans them for another day as a latex paint brush.
Good luck and don't panic, it''ll all get natural after a bit..
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Beautiful bench, Sarge.
VL
Ven
Thank you ma'am... !!!
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
On my latest glue-up, I just found out what it means to the end result when the assembly table you use is almost flat. :-)
My TS top is completely flat -- I like the suggestion to use that very much.
-M.
Mark
It that project tilts right or left, just tilt the foundation of the structure you will place it the opposite direction. ha..ha..
Or, you could just flatten your assembly table. :>)
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sarge,
That is an all purpose work bench for every problem! I think you're proud of it.
You should be.
RD
Will the RealDusty please stand up..
Thank you. Actually it's made from throw-away scraps. I just posted in Through Tenons-Wedged or Pinned with a brief summary of how it evolved. Sort of an experiment with left-over throw aways which I try to give a "second chance" in lieu of burning or the land-fill.
If you want the whole story of it, go to the archives from about a month or so ago and search for "Work-Benches-Beauty or Beast".
It's the fifth personal, even though I have collaborated on another 12 to 15 over the last 30 years. I've used that base design I came up with for about 20 years. It works pretty well.
Am I proud? I put a little sign under-neath almost everything I make that makes a simple statement. I use a lot of cheaper material and peoples throw-aways as far as material, but the design, jointery and finish are:
Made With Pride in the U.S.A.
Have a great day...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I agree with Jon about the temperature I have had Titebond 2 fail and the joints crack at between 50- 55F.Unfortunately they just yawned a bit, 2 days after taking them out of the clamps.So I had to remake 12 four by four red oak legs after sawing them apart with a lot of @%^$%!!!!!!!
The clamp time for PVA yellow and white and Type II PVA is 30-60 minutes with dry wood, glue and ambient temperature at 70-75 degrees according to Franklin Adhesives. Low relative humidity can reduce open time and very high humidity can increase both open and clamp time.
This means that the glue is strong enough that removal of the clamps should not cause the glueline to fail. However, these adhesives don't attain 95% of full strength for 24 hours with the above temperature parameters.
If the temperature goes below 60 degrees, the clamp time and cure time will double. Much below 60 can be problematic.
No, keeping the item in clamps will not make the joint stronger but it may support the joint if it is under some type of stress. For bent laminations, keeping the item is clamps much longer is recommended.
Finky,
I can only re-inforce what many have said about clamping time. Temperature is the most important factor. The second most important is the type of fit. For instance, a well milled cope and stick for cabinet doors often cannot be taken apart without breaking the sticker detail after a clamping time of two minutes using titebond 1. This particular joint is comprised of end, biased, and edge grains - the combination of which sucks moisture out of the glue very quickly.
I use only 7 clamps total when clamping cabinet doors up as fast as I can go. The odd one is used to position one rail relative to the other.
I have not noticed that the relative humidity of the air makes any difference in clamping time. Glue inside a joint is not in contact with the air.
Temperature of the glue, wood and air (in that order, I believe) are of primary importance, as are the type and tollerances of the fit. Square edge to edge joints will obviously require longer clamping times, though certainly no longer than an hour for most domestic species, provided they are not manhandled abusively right away.
Clampman
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