Replies

1. 
   SgianDubh | Jul 23, 2005 12:29pm | #1

   Good link Charles. Fascinating reading.

   I found it interesting to note the figure of seven hours per drawer construction is reckoned to be the time allowed to the journeyman, and very close to my estimating factor. In my estimating I use eight hours per drawer as my standard charge, this being for a one-off. For multiple drawers (which in this case all have to be essentially the same in a piece of furniture) the time allowance can drop to as short as 5.5 hours per drawer if there are six drawers or more in the set.

   In the estimating method I use the type of drawer specified is a solid timber fully hand dovetailed job with a solid wood bottom fitted into slips. It includes the time required to fit the parts to the opening, do the dovetailing, make and fit the slips, make and fit the drawer bottom, etc., and finally shoot the assembled drawer to fit the opening, and attach the pull. It excludes polishing and extra jobs such as cock beading, veneering the front, cross banding, fitting locks, and other additional work.

   On the other hand I have a much reduced standard time allowance for all types of machine made drawers-- generally one hour for the first one or a single example, followed by 0.5 hrs per additional drawer. Fitting this type of drawer, usually on proprietary runners, is charged separately. Slainte.

   RJFurniture

   
   

   ---

   Edited 7/24/2005 9:15 am ET by Sgian Dubh

1. 
   AlanTurner | Jul 23, 2005 01:40pm | #2

   This is a good article. It might seem strange to some that in days of old, the timing is about the same as today, per Richard. Those several very old pieces I have seen have drawers that are not as good as those ones today made by hand. They have less attention to detail, with rough bottoms and backs, and DT's that are servicable, but not as tight as I see here. And the backs of pieces were oft just a couple of pine boards nailed on, and not nicely shiplapped planks or frame and panel construction. But paid by piecework, this is not surprising.The SAPFM is a terrific organization, and its website has some rather nice work displayed.Alan

   http://www.alanturnerfurnituremaker.com

2. 
   WillGeorge | Jul 24, 2005 03:30pm | #4

   eight hours per drawer..

   Does that include finding all my tools?

1. 
   SgianDubh | Jul 24, 2005 04:02pm | #5

   Perhaps you'll need to allow up to16 hours per drawer then Will, depending on how 'lost' your tools are, ha, ha-- ha, ha, ha. Slainte.RJFurniture

3. 
   CharlieStanford | Jul 25, 2005 10:44pm | #8

   How do you stack up on the overall times for the pieces mentioned in the article?  I'm also wondering if the journeyman's time started with dimensioned stock passed along from the apprentices - was it already flattened and brought close to finish thickness, lengths, and widths when the journeyman got started?  I'm sure it must have been.

1. 
   Patto | Jul 26, 2005 06:43am | #9

   We had a very aggressive (probably rightly so) shearers union in Australia that set all sorts of interesting standards that survived until the itinerant Kiwis arrived with their wide blades in the 80's. (just fishing)

   One of the interesting standards had to do with making sure that the newcomers would stay in the trade. Shearing is paid as piecework (ie a rate per head) that is pretty standard. The owner had to ensure that a 'learner' was capable of making a livable wage. This was done by drafting out a pen of easy sheep, generally the youngones up to 2-tooth, for the learner and paying him the same piece rate. A learner was described as (I think) less than 250 sheep, which was a bit more than a days work for a top shearer.

   This is the only job I have found harder than horse shoeing.

   Dave

2. 
   SgianDubh | Jul 26, 2005 03:13pm | #10

   I haven't done that exercise Charles, but I certainly noticed that overall times for the chests of drawers described fell into roughly the 55 hours to 75 hours range. In the first piece described in the list there were four drawers, and if I allowed 7 hours per drawer because of the additional cockbeading and veneering then if memory serves correctly that left about 25 or so hours to frame the thing up.

   It looks tight but it must have been do-able. A lot of the pieces from that era weren't very well made and tended to be lashed together in a hurry-- nothing's changed on the quality front if you compare those old pieces with a lot of modern stuff. The few items that survive from that time are often pretty shoddy when you look closely at them, with the rider that there are always outstanding exceptions.

   I wonder, if the items described are standard products, and if they were knocked out in batches of 10, 20 or more, and if several craftsmen worked on different parts in a production type set-up? It seems possible as this would reduce time spent making each item.

   I'd also guess, like you, that the wood was trued and squared before the journeyman got to it and the time suggested is for making from already trued up and dimensioned parts. In my estimating method I treat this truing and squaring as a separate item charged at 1.25 cubic feet per hour, or15 board foot per hour, or 44 hours per cubic metre, all depending on what measuring system I'm using. Then I've got a charge for the basic cutting up of man made board materials too, ha, ha. Slainte.RJFurniture

1. 
   CharlieStanford | Jul 29, 2005 05:08pm | #14

   I was sure that this would be a 100+ post thread but I guess my attempt at posting something substantive fell on its face.

   Guess I'll go back to arguing about flat workbenches and who makes the best tablesaw.

   Thanks for your thoughts.

1. 
   jericho | Jul 29, 2005 06:55pm | #15

   stanford,

   it's the reading part that slows us down. we're used to highlight films and pictures. keep up the good reading. someone has to carry on the written language and the skills.

   this is the way car dealerships set the price for a repair in their shop. each job has a certain 'time' for completion. the good (fast) mechanics can do say twelve hours work in eight hours time.

   many thanks,

   jericho

   Edited 7/29/2005 12:02 pm ET by jericho

2. 
   jazzdogg | Jul 29, 2005 06:56pm | #16

   Come one, CS, Didn't your mama (or your wife!) ever tell you quality is at least as important as quantity? Ha, ha, ha...

    

    -Jazzdogg-

   "Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie

2. 
   VomSorb | Jul 23, 2005 10:45pm | #3

   Bump.

3. 
   AlbionWood | Jul 24, 2005 06:27pm | #6

   That is fascinating stuff!

   How things change... today, this kind of price-fixing among different manufacturers would be illegal. Then, it was seen as a remedy for inequality. "Equal pay for equal work" - why does that sound familiar?

   "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler."  A. Einstein

   http://www.albionworks.net

1. 
   CharlieStanford | Jul 25, 2005 10:29pm | #7

   I was somewhat less interested in the politics I suppose are implicit in the article.

4. 
   jimwfly | Jul 28, 2005 09:02pm | #11

   Being curious about the pay rate at the time (12.5 cents per hour in 1830, or $1.00 for 8 hours) compared to current, I looked up an inflation conversion chart that compared then to now (http://oregonstate.edu/Dept/pol_sci/fac/sahr/cv2005.pdf).  If I did it right, it's interesting to note that in 2005 dollars, 12.5 cents per hour in 1830 would equate to $2.50 per hour now, and a $1.00 eight-hour day would now net a mere $20.

   I'm no cabinetmaker, but I would hope you guys doing this for a living are doing better than this!

   Jim

   I am a bear of very little brain, and long words bother me. -- Winnie-the-Pooh

1. 
   CharlieStanford | Jul 28, 2005 09:48pm | #12

   Check your math and get another price deflator.

   Edited 7/28/2005 7:44 pm ET by Stanford

2. 
   joinerswork | Jul 29, 2005 01:40am | #13

   Jim,

   I remember reading some time ago, that the typical work week for early 1800's was six 12 hr days, and "the master to supply candles".

   Regards,

   Ray