Yet more Veritas sharpening gubbins!
Once a week I peruse the Lee Valley website for things I can’t buy in the UK without paying enormous postage, customs and sales tax amounts; and then waiting weeks for a parcel that may end up stuck in Japan. They have a “What’s New” page …….
This week I notice yet more clever jiggery for holding blades needing a sharpen:
https://www.leevalley.com/en-gb/shop/tools/sharpening/guides/111759-veritas-side-clamping-honing-guide?item=05M0940
https://www.leevalley.com/en-gb/shop/tools/sharpening/guides/111758-veritas-short-blade-honing-guide?item=05M0930
Very clever stuff, as is generally the case with Veritas designs. However, what prompts them to make these new gubbins when their MkII system + accouterments supposedly (and actually, in my experience) serve to sharpen everything, including the items associated with these new gubbins? (See their videos)?
Marketing is a queer thing, often driven by the fetish for the fashionable or “new! & improved!!” as much as by any true needs….. Is that the case here or are y’all going to rush to the virtual shop with your dollars? I don’t think I’ll be doing so myself, even if they export them to the UK distributor (Brimark) so I can actually buy one at a reasonable price …….
Lataxe
Replies
Simplicity+Side Clamping+Price=Purchase.
In my experience with the Veritas MKII, the blade often shifts ever so slightly giving an uneven edge. I think maybe Veritas is addressing this criticism of the MKII with this new design. So I'll give it a try.
I've had that experience as well with MKII. I'm considering the same change (although I'm not thrilled with the sunk cost of the MKII).
The top/bottom clamping grip of the Veritas MkII can slip, as I discovered when I first got one. But if the instructions to evenly tighten the two bolts of the clamp are followed, slipping is eliminated.
The top/bottom clamp is inappropriate for narrow blades such as those of chisels, so Veritas made the additional side clamping jaws. These work for all my chisels except a couple that don't have parallel sides and an Iles 1/16" wide item. For those, I use the top/bottom clamp but insert a small piece of thin rubber under the blade, which seems to prevent it moving if I don't clamp-up too hard then go carefully.
I can't see how the new guides can deal any better with that last case of a narrow blade with non-parallel sides. Short of making dedicated jaws for a particular chisel or including a deformable rubberised jaw thingy, what could?
(Someone will now tell me what could). :-)
Lataxe
I started out with an Eclipse side clamping guide, way back when it's all that was available. I put a bunch of time into making it work better, but it was poorly made, and annoying.
I bought the Veritas MKII a couple of years after it came out. I never liked it. I had the same experience as Bluemo -- being top clamping, blades could pivot and shift. Especially narrow blades. I gave it away and went back to the Eclipse.
I got one of the first Lie Nielsen sideclamping guides when they came out. I got one of the first few the day they were sold. I absolutely love it. It's the same idea as the Eclpise, but built by engineers and machinists, not accountants. It handles short blades, narrow blades, thick blades, skew blades. It's perfect. I know people who love the Veritas MKII, but I wouldn't use one if you paid me.
One of the new Veritas honing guides is for shortblades only, but it is also top clamping. The other looks nice. It's a copy, more or less, of the Eclipse side clamping jig. It has upper and lower slots to handle different types of blades. It can't handle the whole range that the Lie Nielsen can, but I'd bet money It's 100 times better than the Eclipse.
John,
You enthuse: "I got one of the first Lie Nielsen sideclamping guides when they came out. I got one of the first few the day they were sold. I absolutely love it. ........ It's perfect. I know people who love the Veritas MKII, but I wouldn't use one if you paid me".
Do they pay you to have a Veritas tool these days!? What must one do to obtain such a winning contract? I'm not sure I could gush about them to others, mind. Also, I don't mind paying for well-designed items that work well.
Perhaps you had one of those wicked Chinese copies of a MkII and didn't notice? :-)
Can't say I've ever loved a tool, though. (That's a rather risque opinion to emit, mind)! Admiration for the designer-maker is about my limit of emotional response.
As to Lie-Nielsen tools ...... I've owned and used only half a dozen, all now sold on ebay. (They do sell well second hand). I found them all curiously lacking in the ease and facility of their functions, unlike Veritas. Perhaps this is because Lie-Nielsen's basic approach is to copy past designs and machine them well? They don't seem to innovate in the Veritas fashion.
Of course, they are made in the USA, which automatically adds a large dollop of "better" for many, eh?
Lataxe
There are plenty of people getting either money or free tools to pitch products online. YouTube mostly, and some blogs and Instagram. I pay them no attention. The only time I go on YouTube is ifi have a particular problem that needs solving, like my recent washing machine fix.
It's sad that you don't have tools that you love. A really well made tool is pure joy. One that is beautifull as well is special. Once in a while I find one that combines the best of both.
Veritas surely innovates more, and always comes up with new things. Quality is top notch, but I frequently find the "innovations" are better in concept than in use. I very quickly got over the low angle plane with multiple blade thing. They sit on the shelf, while my Lie Nielsen 3 and 4 get almost all the use.
Gadgets and gubbins aren't usually the best answer.
Lee Valley just sent us a complete magazine about sharpening containing all the Veritas goodies as well as a all types of stones and other means of getting your tool sharp and bank account in the red.
I'm holding out for the 1,000,000,000 grit unobtanium stone. Or is it 1,000,000,000 mesh?
I like it. It tightens adequately by hand and the three points of contact system for clamping the blade is pretty sweet compared to the other affordable side clamping guides. Definitely worth the $40 if you ask me.
does it work with blades that don't have parallel sides? I have the narrow-blade attachment for the MkII, but it won't hold a tool at a consistent angle if both sides aren't parallel and square to the edge
I'm a fan of your domestic Kell #2 guide.
The ultimate in simplicity!
Times have changed. Technology has brought forth tremendous improvement. However, we marvel at the work of those "old" masters who had no such gadgets as a honing jig that allows you to select your bevel in 5 degree increments.
Yep, me too - I have an eclipse knockoff, a few different versions of Veritas stuff (including the new side-clamping one) and the #1 & #2 Kell's. They all work good for plane blades, but not my chisels. I use Barr Quarton chisels and some 25 year old japanese chisels. Both sets of chisels are tapered from front to rear. Only the Kell's hold the chisels absolutely perfect.
I have a number of very small planes, which I use regularly. The Mark II never worked really well for them, in obtaining a square and uniform edge. I recently purchased the small blade attachment. I have been agreeably surprised at how well it works (if the blade is kept tight in the jaws). It is worth the purchase price.
I owned the mkII years ago and hated it unfortunately, and bought the Lie Nielsen honing guide which has worked wonderfully for me.
But what if a tool hates you back? Or (perhaps worse) loves you back!? It's not uncommon, the strong human emotion viz-a-viz inanimate objects ....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_sexuality
.... but seems an unwise mode to adopt, especially for the human. After all, if you can fall in love with a mere tool - or seriously fall out with one - the habit may become ingrained. It may become an amplified norm in all your relationships, including those with the wife & kids, the dog, the neighbors and then the whole world.
Perhaps this is how fellows become enamored of demagogues, whilst to others they seem hateful monsters?
In a consumer society, the love of the inanimate objects is now named as fanboyism, a mode often associated with that queer phenomenon of "brand loyalty". Flame wars arise in forums concerning, for example, the participants' loyalties or disdain for brands of sharpening gubbins!
Wot mad items are we humans, eh? :-)
Lataxe, more of a bunny-hugger than a tool-fondler.
@Lataxe, that's getting a bit deep. Before you know it you'll grow a beard, be hand-tools only and finishing everything by rubbing the lanolin from a living sheep on it.
I have to recognise that a bit. I like my Veritas honing guide, so I bought a Veritas dovetail saw. Now I may buy their planes and why? No more or less than simply because I bought that honing guide. No logic to it at all. If I watch head to head reviews, I'm rooting for Veritas even though I don't own any of the tools being reviewed. I don't even need a new plane as after years of tears I can now use my cheapo Indian one well enough, but still. Team Veritas...
I never thought of it outside the Mac vs PC controversy before, but almost came to blows with a colleague who insisted that Jacinda Ardern (NZ PM) could do no wrong and that our COVID outcomes being good meant that all the decision making had to have beeen good. When I find my half-inch bowl gouge, I'll let you know how his intestines are doing. To him, the mere suggestion of imperfection was unpatriotic. It's the same with sports teams and all sorts of things. I suspect our madness comes from a kind of need to be part of the tribe, and also to stick it to the opposition. Just a bit...
On the other hand, there are people like me -- we have no loyalty. I have Lie Nielsen planes and Veritas planes, and love them both. My dust collector is Jet, my planer is DeWalt, my band saw is Laguna, my table saw is SawStop. If I am "beholden" to anyone (and aren't we all?), it is not a brand but rather the latest tool review from various and sundry "experts" in society.
Same here. I don't own two stationary tools from the same company. My hand tools are a mix of vintage and new, with the new split between several makers -- mostly because I'd like to help them all stay in business for a long time.
There's a lot to be said for supporting a high quality maker of things; but also for discouraging the drossers via one's wallet-vote. (Although they probably don't notice, as cheap dross still sells by the cartload to the naive advert-believers).
But there isn't always a clear distinction. Sometimes the high quality folk go a fangle-too-far. And even a dross-maker might accidentally produce a little gem of a thing.
Some brands do build one's trust - a weight of evidence indicating that their stuff is almost always high quality and worth the price. Step forward LV & LN, as prime examples. One may also come to trust that some manufacturers are incapable of and/or unwilling to make good stuff. Any nominees? :-)
Sometimes one may buy based on a brand name that has a high reputation with others that one trusts. Here is a role for a good magazine tool reviewer - who would be a fool to destroy that trust with a good review for a piece of dross. (It only takes once).
Personally I have some favorite and trusted brands, so sometimes have to force myself to buy a new tool from someone else. :-) I'd generally check with that Derek Cohen to see if he's made a judgement on a thing; and with one or three others about the forums.
*********
Some folk feel a reluctance to condemn a tool or it's maker, on the grounds that it undermines their business and is only one person's personal opinion. However, I feel a degree of gratitude for such an amateur review ...... if it exhibits the hallmarks of some measured and convincing evidence rather than just an emotive explosion of unqualified damn & blasting. Some fanboys feel the need to condemn all stuff lacking the logo they have a fetish for!
Lataxe
Shall we move on to Festool now? ;-)
I have almost no issues with the veritas MkII - I find it excellent.
Only one chisel has ever moved noticeably ( a whopping thick sash mortise chisel) but that one is a snip to hand sharpen as the bevel created by the grinder is relatively deep.
For plane blades, the original point of the purchase, it is hard to find better.
I'm the same, the MKII works for me and I have no real issues with it. At the same time, there is an element of "if it makes you happy, why are you so sad?" to it. I kind of wish I had gone the simpler route.
I have some photos of the new honing guides ...
https://www.woodworkforums.com/f127/sharpen-stanley-spokeshave-151-blade-241235#post2237370
and
https://www.woodworkforums.com/f127/sharpen-stanley-spokeshave-151-blade-241235#post2237466
Regards from Perth
Derek
I might have known you'd have them gubbins already. Get thee behind me! :-)
Lataxe
I have the Mk.II. I like it. Initially, I experienced slipping like others have described. I realized I was pushing too hard. Now I use a light touch. If the blade does slip, I can feel it and correct without causing problems. My realization about pressure coincided with the acquisition of diamond stones. 99% sure there is a causal relationship there. I'm not going to say I enjoy sharpening now, but it no longer fills me with a sense of dread.
I too sometimes wish I had gone the LN route (it is a lot prettier). Now that I figured out how to keep it from slipping, I would probably choose the Mk.II again. For the LN style, I think I would (irrationally) always suspect my shopmade registration jig was out of square and ruining everything. It would consume me. It's good to know these things about yourself.
MK2 working well for me. Under 1/2" honed freehand. I flatten on diamonds and finish on Shaptons after hollow grinding on a slow speed wet wheel by grizzly. Little blades and skews all freehand.
Ah Veritas...the R&D school of "TSF,OSB" (two steps forward, and...). The tragic MK I stills sits unused in the box of honing tools. Occasionally I still look at it with varying amounts of scorn - and think of the designer who made this "thing". The precious memories of countless blades squirming around under the...ahem...clamp. He or she was most likely the same designer that came up with the fence less tablesaw - with simple lines scored in the top parallel to the blade to help with alignment and widths. Seriously though, I do use the MK II, its easy to use, and it works fairly well - although no skew chisels will go in that thing to squirm around (they all go in an old Kell guide held fast by a Maple wedge) - even though Veritas came out with the mother of all xmas presents, the Skew Registration Jig. I would also add re. the Mark II - does one really need to use "instant rust" brand steel for the clamp bolts?! I'm pretty sure that T. Lie-Nielsen is not the only one making a honing guide who knows about the mystery material we call ...stainless steel. Well you know, TSF,OSB. Signing off now, have to go clean the rust off said bolts...
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