Hello all, as you may or may not know I have been playing around in the hobby sense I was 7 or so (say 30 years) and I have recently started to look at doing some stuff with hand planes. My idea being that in some cases it is simpler to pull out a hand plane then to use a power tool. In general I view this hobby (well it is a hobby for me) as something to have fun with so what ever gets the job done simpler is where I tend to go.
Anyway I have a few hand planes that I use and I am looking at picking up more. I have looked at Bedrocks and at LN and such and I keep hearing about these infill planes. Now On another discussion someone posted a link to a web page that sold wood working tools for a so called good price, and on this page was a list of infill planes buy (I think the company was named) Holt or some such? Anyway they look real nice and all but MY GOD they listed at $6000 and up. IS someone joking? Is this a test for rich people? If you can afford one of these you get Donald trumps home phone number with it?
Not being mean or anything but their is no way in the world that you can justify the cost of one of these things. First off how do you justify spending that kind of money on a plane? Keep in mind that you need several hand planes. And how does he justify the cost? If he sold 40 of these a year (less then one a week, with a nice couple months vacation) he would gross almost a quarter of a million dollars. Even if he only makes half of that he is still making a GOOD living building less then one plane a month. This is crazy. Either this is way too labor intensive and he is making very few planes a year. Or this is just a case of he is selling them for all he can get.
Yes I have no doubt that these are great planes, but still come on. I am just guessing here but I think that you could buy every LN plane made and a lot of their other tools and most of LV/Veritus for the cost of one of these things. And while I am sure these are hard to make I know others have done it. So it is not like he is the only person on earth that can make these.
So who is using/buying these things?
Oh well I guess I will close up this post here and I will go an pick up my jaw from the basement (if fell right though the floor)
Doug Meyer
Replies
Hey Doug, could you provide some chapter-and-verse? Where did you find a $6000 plane?
The plane he is referring to is made by Karl Holtey. Do a google search. They are considered to be the top of the line of hand made infill planes and are produced in very limited quantities
Jim
I think you mean Karl Holtey's planes.
They are works of art made one at a time, by hand mostly for collectors, though I hear they work beautifully.
Wayne Anderson who makes wonderful looking planes himself, recently called Holtey the "best planemaker ever, period."
http://www.holteyplanes.com/
A fella on another forum describes a recent visit to Eugene Landons shop and the discussion turned to handmade infills and to Holtey planes and Gene turned around and pulled a dusty Holtey off of the shelf.
Mostly I think they live in glass cases and are pulled out once 'n awhile to be lovingly wiped down with camelia oil after shaving a board and making a shavings a tenth of a gnats whisker thick.
I've said it before but I can't wait to find one on ebay all rusted and full of toolbox dings and a cracked tote with an old bolt fitted to where the knob once was. I'd bid on it!
David C.
Thanks for the link and information, David.Doug, this is just good old Adam Smith: supply and demand. If you make beautiful planes, and people want them, then you simply price them in such a way that you get about as many orders as you have time (and interest) to fill.The dumbest thing you can do in business is to set your price too low. Rp
P.S.: I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that there are some customers for whom Karl Holtley will make a plane for a couple of hundred pounds, maybe less. It's not that he thinks his planes are worth thousands of dollars. It's rather that others think his planes are worth that much -- and Holtley thinks his time is worth that much.Rp
There is a long waiting list for the Holtey planes, I seriously doubt that he is selling them much more cheaply to select customers... there is simply no reason to do so.
Bigfootnampa writes: "...there is simply no reason to do so." You don't know that. How about the brother in law or old school friend who loaned him money for materials a long time ago because he likes the planes ... but can't afford them now?How about the customer who stuck with him before he developed the mastery he has now?The fact that there is "a long waiting list for the Holtley planes" suggests that he's selling them all too cheaply!Rp
My old friend was a cabinetmaker for a company called Biggs. They made reproductions for Willliamsburg and sold upscale reproductions for high end clients. He was 89 when I met him. He was poking around my shop and found a new $40 Stanley #4. I told him it was a worthless, cheap plane. He gave me some tips on how to tune it up that I didn't know- mostly flattening up the back of the iron. It went from a gouger to a plane that make fairly fine, nice shavings. He was nice about it, but I felt pretty stupid at the time.
He sold me what was left of his shop. There were mostly 1940s and 50s handplanes. They work quite well.
"...The dumbest thing you can do in business is to set your price too low."
Message received.
Eeesh! Now I'll have to place my order for a C & W Jack plane before you have time to update the website!
My Coffin smoother and panel raiser and T & G's are lonely...
David C.
Eeesh! Now I'll have to place my order for a C & W Jack plane before you have time to update the website!
My Coffin smoother and panel raiser and T & G's are lonely...
David C.
Ha, David. I had just started a message saying about the same only to be called back out to the shop! Only in my case I was thinking of the Jr. Jack. Then a panel plane. Then ...
Take care, Mike
I've seen those babies...gotta be sold to tool collectors as they have very deep pockets.. Here's a link to a plane that sold at auction for only $114,000....
http://www.finetoolj.com/bas/home.html
The 120mm plane ( Kanna ) pictured below set me back $3,250.00. There is alot of skill and tradition and quality materials that went into making this Kanna so the price is very fair. I think when you buy a high dollar plane you are paying for the skill, pride and materials that go into making it. Likewise I put alot of pride, skill and quality materials into items I make and the cost is reflected on that as well. I'm not saying I spend high dollars on every tool but when I do I appreciate the craftsmanship that went into it and I feel it encourages me to do higher quality work myself.
Dale
What ever happened with the shops in Cedarburg? Did you make a walnut crotch table with two butterflies for a Tom L., who lives in Shorewood?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
The shop in Cedarburg closed up awhile ago. The 3rd floor, which I was on had problems of drawing visitors because of the long trip up the stairs. I now work from my studio in Mequon. I do not recall the name Tom L, I am working on a couple Walnut Crotch tables however. One is for a client and the other is for my exhibit at the http://www.finefurnishingsshow.com/ this year. This Cherry Crotch table went to a client in Grafton.
Dale
http://www.timberwerksstudio.com
Edited 1/29/2007 6:09 pm by Timberwerks
I really would be happier if this city would advertise better when things are going on. I first heard about the 2006 show on the last day, after it closed. Since I wasn't going to Providence, I was kinda PO'd. What are you finishing these with? Do you put a butterfly on the bottom, too?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I use an oil/varnish mix. The bowties are only from the top and I make them about 3/4 the thicknes of the top the are set into. They are not just for looks, they really strengthen the crotch area or splits. I'll post photos of the Walnut tables when the are complete.
Dalehttp://www.timberwerksstudio.com
I know, they're for adding stability. Do you pull the open end together slightly before marking and installing them or just leave it relaxed?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I leave the crotch are relaxed. Before I work with the slabs I let them acclimate for a year or more in the studio. The Cherry table was delivered a year ago and is still flat and stable. I thought the size of slab may cause the base to rock a little from season to season but there is no hint of rocking, I'm very pleased.
Dale http://www.timberwerksstudio.com
How wide is that Kanna and what do you use it for specifically?
It is 120mm. It's main use will be for fireplace mantels, face edge, bevels and tops.
Dale
View Image
View Imagehttp://www.timberwerksstudio.com
Doug, I think you worry way too much about things that have nothing to do with working wood, and you use way too many words to express your concerns.
Others have answered the questions of economics, but why on earth would you want to get into areas (such as how people justify paying a price, or how much the artist should charge for his work) in which you have no information on which to base your judgments (e.g.,"This is crazy.").
Grumpily yours,
Don Brown
Apparently, you didn't find his top-of-the-line model. Last I saw, it was in the $11,400 range. You sure that wasn't £6000 and not $6000?
Those (the Holtey planes) are spectacular looking planes. If they work as well as they look, they'd be nice to have.
Doug, you need one to go with your new store-bought bench, don't you think? ;-)
Rp
All,
There has been a lot of talk about Holtey. I don't think anyone in this thread has mentioned Philip Marcou, who is one of the great craftsmen here on Knots. He makes magnificent planes, as well being a furniture maker. You can look up his planes onhttp://www.marcouplanes.com/Each is a work of art. By the way, I found it interesting to read the reviews posted there by his customers. One of them compared one of Philip's planes to another one he owns by Holtey. On Knots, we have as regulars, some of the world's great craftsmen, including tool makers. If you don't know Mike Wenzloff, and his custom saws, you should visithttp://www.wenzloffandsons.com/saws/Besides being outstanding custom toolmakers, they are eminently nice guys. I have gotten great info from both Philip and Mike, and always with a smile. Mike gave me advice on sawmaking, and Philip gave me advice on plane making. I guess that neither is worried about competition from me. (and rightfully so). I don't know everyone on Knots. If you know of other great toolmakers on Knots, please let me know. I know of others who make great tools for their own use. My question is about folks who do it for a living.This message is not an advertisement!. I posted it for those few people who may not know the quality of some of the toolmakers that frequent our forum. Whenever I see a post by either Philip or Mike, I read it.
Thank you.
Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
<<I don't think anyone in this thread has mentioned Philip Marcou>>Mel,Actually he has been mentioned (message 34141.27) and posted himself. You're right, we are fortunate to have toolmakers like Philip Marcou participating here on Knots. I always enjoy his posts, and admire his stuff. (Philip -- if you're reading this, my praise is designed to flatter you into giving me a deal on one of your planes, not inflate your ego and prices. You may contact me anytime with details of your Super Saver discounts)Mike
Mel,
There is an interesting review of S20A - one of the Marcou's planes.
Here is the link:
http://www.wktools.com/reviews/marcouR/marcou1.aspWiktor
Wiktor,
I just read the review. Excellent. Well done. Quality shows up well when tested to the limits.
Thank you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
What has Sam Maloof gotten for a chair in recent years? How does that compare to a Chris Becksvort spindle back chair at $2100, a Thos. Moser Catena side chair at $1100, or a fanback side chair from Ethan Allen at $269. Functionally there isn't much to choose between them.
The market for high end goods has always gone beyond function and economic value (amount of money which can be made with the item). I suspect it's the same whether the item is a chair, a painting, or a plane.
What has Sam Maloof gotten for a chair in recent years? How does that compare to a Chris Becksvort spindle back chair at $2100, a Thos. Moser Catena side chair at $1100, or a fanback side chair from Ethan Allen at $269. Functionally there isn't much to choose between them.
Although its been two weeks since you asked that question, it seems that nobody approached and answer -- I'll have a go......
I attended a weekend seminar at Highland Hardware in Atlanta two years ago, taught by Sam Maloof. (I stongly recommend the same experience to all. Strongly -- really -- find the time and the money somewhere, and just go.)
At that time, I think Sam was 89 years old. He told us that he had a backlog that would take years to clear. And that it took about a week to complete each chair. That included a day or more of his time cutting and assembling, and the balance of the week was in shaping, sanding, and finishing -- most of which is done by "his boys" (hired helpers who will eventually inherit his business).
He was also very clear in stating that the least expensive rocking chair he does is the one in Claro Walnut, which at that time sold for $52,000.00. Other woods change the price somewhat.
Unless you're the lead dog, the view just never changes.
Fifty two thou??!!!
Good for him. He deserves every cent.
But d*mn! $52,000. That's more than I make in a week!
Rich
Rich,
I reckon my Marcou S15A is worth at least $52,000 by now. I would sell it you but I like it too much, so you better have a word with that Philip before the new ones exceed the price of 3 Holteys.
There is already a large queue of anxious would-be customers, I imagine. In fact, is that Doug I see near the back of the line?
Lataxe
Lataxe. I would dearly love one of Phillip's works of art. Alas, my disposable income does not allow satisfaction of that desire. I make my own planes. Soon I'll have my (partial) workshop again. And I'll post some images of the little shavers. Rich
Well I will give due notice of any plans to list on the N.Y stock exchange.
Meanwhile "that Philip" is depressed and may need to indulge in therapy, in the form of re-claiming this fine old bandsaw- discoverd during the course of bicycle riding which is done quickly to avail oneself of the annual 4 days of summer here.I need to locate the table....
But this means that those planes will be in even shorter supply, thus according to the laws of supply and demand the price will rise.However , since Cde Doug has not taken umbrage and absconded I will hold them down so that they do not "go over the top".
P.S- I am not posting the pictures on OWWM because there will be an insurrection.Philip Marcou
Philip,
That garden folly is just the sort of item the ladywife is collecting down at her allotment. She grows peas and beans up them; sometimes she may even grow a honeysuckle. At present there are several ornate but rusty iron gates and other structures that are mysterious. (Perhaps one of them is an ancient bandsaw).
Your pictured item would look best with an exotic clematis upon it, I feel. Please box it up and ship to Galgate Allotments; you may receive a bushel of beans in return, eventually. :-)
Is your sentence in Kiwistan not ended yet then? Move to Blighty, whereupon the shipping charges for planes will be reduced (to me) and the ladywife may be moved in the purse region. Also, you will have a big shed full of exotic machines, which I will nip over to use from time to time (and to spoil the cats a bit).
That S50 is beautiful, by the bye.
Lataxe
Sire, very accurate observations on your part.The sentence to languish in Kiwistan is of indeterminate length as I reckon I will need to make and sell at least 200 planes to remove myself from here.The one remaining hope is to win the Readers Digest 1st prize.Philip Marcou
When I first saw the picture of that saw I thought it was an oil derrick.Ron
You have GOT to be joking Philip! You will never move that piece of machinery on your bicycle! It is an amazing find. JL
Philip, insurrection? I think that they would need the services of the local rescue squad cardiac team first. It's a beauty. Do you really think that a table can be found? What would you use to push that four sheave drive pulley? Who is the maker? Thanks for the pics, Paddy
Paddy, as soon as I saw those diamond shaped cut outs and the column with the flats on iI recognised it . If you have that soft cover book "Fine Woodworking on Woodworking Machines" you will see the very same machine on the cover picture and the article on page 2. It is unmistakable. It will have been chucked out because it has no wheel covers and the woodwork industry in this country is all @$%^& up anyway.
I have "started initial enquiries" to locate the top. Possibly it is in use-as concrete re-inforcement or a step face-who knows.It may even be standing on the table-there are some wasps there stopping me from looking too close. I find this sort of thing very depressing because it represents in fact what is really going on here-waste and ignorance.You can be sure that it will become "valuable" as soon as I show interest in it....
Although I do have quite a nice old machine I know that if I do find the table I will be wanting that machine. Not a big task to move it- it can be broken down into easily managed sections.I have a spare 3 genuine horse 3 phase motor-quite enough power for most things.
Lord knows why the multi groove pulley is there-possibly it was the handiest thing to replace the flat belt pulley with.
Philip Marcou
Philip, I know that you will persever and we will see the reserection. The multiple pulleys were a combination of marketing, belt and braces mentality and the fact that their V belts would dry out, glaze up or stretch . They didn't have our space age synthetic rubber compounds with a core of synthetic fibers. We would do that today with two 1" flat grooved belts and you could cut the Queen Mary in half. Good luck with the bugs. (btw. it's -7° in the AM and18°F in the afternoon in the NYC area -no bugs) All the best, Paddy
Hi Paddy,
We've been having similar temps up here in New Hampshire, but several °'s colder, one morning it was -28°!
You're right, no problems with bugs, except for the snow fleas that hang out on the snow covered veranda, during the few sunny days we've had.
phillip - I could use some warmth. Perhaps I could hop a plane and come down and give you a hand with that saw!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
That's an amazing price.Do you know if he customizes them in any way (shape, size, etc.), or is each chair pretty much done in the same mold?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
That's an amazing price.
Do you know if he customizes them in any way (shape, size, etc.), or is each chair pretty much done in the same mold?
Aside from his level of artistry, Sam is one of the most customer-oriented business people you could ever meet. If an owner of one of his pieces has any problem, Sam truly wants to take care of that problem. (This, I believe, is an extension of his truly caring, loving, and compassionate personality.)
For example, if an owner uses one of his rockers so much that the finish wears off of the armrests, Sam will re-finish them -- and I got the impression that he does this for free (except for shipping or travel costs).
And I further got the impression that if a customer wanted a rocking chair that was somehow different in size or fit, that he would do that too.
Having said that, I'll tell you that there were people of every shape and size (and both genders) at the seminar I attended. And there were a couple of his chairs (non-rocker) there too. Every comment, from everyone who tried either of the chairs, was positive as related to comfort. As a result, there are probably very few requests for customization beyond his original design.
Unless you're the lead dog, the view just never changes.
You know, for $52,000 you could buy 8 hand planes, and still have $4,000 left over, maybe for a block plane. :@)
Doug, it is my lunch break and I am quickly skimming through my mail.You said "Not being mean or anything but their is no way in the world that you can justify the cost of one of these things."
I think the price can be justified-but it requires some knowledge of what is involved in making a tool like this to those standards.I am waiating to see what comes up on this thread before making further, if any, comments. Meanwhile I suggest you look at his web site for some hints, such as descriptions of work methods and the type of machinery that is glimpsed in the background.
I doubt if he has time to make (and sell) forty of those at 6k each in a year- would you like to tell us how long you think it would take a competent engineer to make one. You can round your guess to the nearest ten hours- 1.e one working day.
OTOH, you could sell one of yours for the price of a new Stanley if you dropped your labor rate to about forty-five cents an hour and sold the materials at your cost. And threw in shipping, handling, etc. Insurance on the piece being shipped wouldn't be necessary since the stated value would be less than whatever the minimum insurance level is. Don't bother trying to recover the cost of your machinery, either. We all know they're a dime a dozen. You probably don't pay for electricity or heat, your shop is a cave dug into the ground with your bare hands so there's no cost attributed to that, and you don't need any other tools to make your planes, package them or finish the wooden parts. Plus, you didn't spend hours and hours designing your planes, researching other designs to see if you could even sell yours without having to pay some kind of royalty. (I hope nobody misses the fact that I'm being facetious)I saw your new website yesterday- looks good. How is your distribution working out?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Doug
For most, a Holtey will remain but a dream, and aspirations will end with a Lie Nielsen, a Lee Valley, a Steve Knight, or a Clark & Williams. For the lucky ones who can afford the likes of a Holtey, an Anderson, a Marcou, a Hutchinson, or one of several other high end planemakers, they will receive a quality tool that provides enormous pleasure. Are these planes worth the extra over a LN? Well, is a LN worth the extra over a Stanley? As in all things, there is a law of dimishing returns. The more costly tools are better workers, but the value is only partly in their capability and more in their exclusivity. A Stanley will also get you there, but to think this way is to miss the point.
I doubt very much that these planemakers are ripping off the public. I also doubt that they are making a lot of money. The handwork they do requires a greater deal of time than you realise. Their attention to detail is extraordinary and, of course, this is what they are selling so it must be so. One of the reasons why I went into this area when I reviewed one of Philip Marcou's smoothers (http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/dCohen/marcou1/index.asp) was to reveal what goes into the price he asks. His smoother has over 500 machined parts, each of which is manufactured in his workshop.
At the end of the day we pay for the value placed on time.
Regards from Perth
Derek
To the gentleman that thinks I am worried about things that I should not be and that I take to many words to say anything, let me say that this is an open forum and if you don't like the topic I suggest you avoid it. As for how long I take to say something. Well if it is to much to read then don't. OH and this is another long winded post so I suggest you skip this also. Why do peaple seam to feel the need to comment on the person posting vs the topic of the post?
Anyway to the rest of you.
Ok lets look at this. if you assume 2000 hours a year, with 40 planes a year that come out to 50 hours per. At $6000 plus (and yes I am aware that their are planes higher then that) this is still a HUGE amount. And I will bet you all that he sells more then forty a year or he works less then 2000 hours.
And while I understand that he is selling them as fast as he is making them thus he can get all he can for them. This does not stop the fact that they are priced way beyond any logicel number that could be justified buy anything other then the argument of "he can get it and some fools with a TON of money can afford to pay it".
Their is a group out in California that is selling a bottle or water (say 1/2 Litter ish size) for about $90 too, and they are selling them, but this does not stop it from being over the top. If you can and will pay $90 for a drink of water in the middle of a city then you have to much money and have not idea what a dollar is really worth.
As for the effect on the rest of us. Are you telling me that anyone that wants to sell infill planes is not looking at that and figuring out that they can sell their for a lot more also? I mean if he can get $6000 plus then someone else should be able to get at least half that right? At some point this concept of sell them for all you can get, and sell fewer for a LOT more and still get the same money will effect the rest of us. Once people start paying this for one thing it will flow into the next. I have another hobby of Model railroading. You used to (say in the 70 and 80) be able to buy a Brass model engine for a fair if pricey amount of money (these are very detailed hand built models from Japan and Korea and such) Now these things have moved into the lands of collectors and the price of all of them has gone up like a rocket, to the point that most people can not afford them any longer. Reason for this is the are now Collectable. So the peaple that are looking for these to model a railroad no longer can aford them and thier is little other option so they can no longer get the style of engines they need.
People that can and will pay money for things where they don't care what it costs effects the rest of us. In my area you can go into the working area and buy gas for Less then two bucks a gallon. (well you could last week) But go into the fancy areas where people drive the high end cars and gas can hit close to $2.50. This is driven by the fact that people in that area will not drive out of their way to pay less as the cost means little to them. My sister is a good example of this. She has no Idea what a gallon of gas cost her becuse she does not look, she almost alwas buys from the most expensive staition in her expensive area. Why because it is easy to get in and out of and the money means nothing to her. But anyone that needs gas in the area they are at will have to pay the cost for it. Not because it is a fare price but because the gas company can get it.
Just because you can get it does not me you are not taking advantage of people, and just because you can afford it does not mean it is worth the cost. And just because I don't have to buy it does not mean that I am not effected buy what you do.
Yes these are works of art but they are also just a hand plane. Like was pointed out on another thread some people around here are a bit over the top. I have seen people suggest (not jokingly) that people buy these to use. That idea is crazy. Most people on this (and any other forum) will never be able to afford one of these. I expected them to be costly but I was thinking a grand or so not six plus.
And last but not least, if these are so nice and so expensive and if infills are so much better then the rest (even LN) then is their an option to get an infill with out selling my house? Or a lung?
I understand you get what you pay for, I will often spend extra to get the better item but not 20 times and then some.
Doug Meyer
He makes as many planes as he is able to and wants to.
He makes enough money doing it to keep on doing it.
He sells them for what the market will bear or lower as evidenced by the long waiting list.
Those who buy them are proud to own them, and they consider them to be fairly priced or they wouldn't buy them.
I don't see any problems so far.
David C.
I agree with some of your points but when it comes to what someone else charges for their product, we would need to see how they arrived at their cost to be objective. Without that, all we can do is react to the price. Is an AC Cobra WORTH $5.5M? No, but someone just paid that much for one. Is a brass Big Boy model worth what it's going for now? Probably not but as long as my brother still has his, I'll bet he wants it to be in case he needs to sell it. The price reflects what the market will bear and $6K is a relatively low price compared with some things that required little in the way of tools, overhead, experience or materials. I have seen more than one #9 Stanley go for well over $1000. Being mass produced, they probably cost less than a couple of dollars but now, people "want" them. Also, if you're buying a Holtey through someone else, Holtey won't see that $6K, either. It's easy to say that something isn't worth the price and I do the same thing but without knowing exactly what it takes to make something, we're jumping to a conclusion that they're gouging our eyes out. It's like anything else- if someone can't do or make something, they have to pay the going rate if they want it. I'm dealing with this now, since my furnace went out and where I live, a homeowner isn't allowed to install their own or do the electrical work. I know how to do it and could pass a competency test (skills, not mental) but I have to pay someone for it. $85/hr for something I can do pizzes me off. Not much less than the $120/hr for a Holtey if you assume no materials, overhead, etc at 50 hours each. "I have seen people suggest (not jokingly) that people buy these to use. That idea is crazy." Less crazy than driving that $5.5M Cobra, IMO. Much less crazy than letting it sit, too. For people who spend that much on something they want, "it's only money". If someone wants something and have the scratch, they'll buy it. No big deal. Sure, it really screws up the market for the rest of us who can't afford to buy one but that's life. I worked in a music store in the '70s and would like to go back so I could buy some of the guitars we had a hard time getting a couple of hundred for. One went for $1500 at the time and has been sold for $64K (1983-1984, documented) and has been sold for a lot more since then and the most I have seen for that model is over $120K. I'll bet it's hanging on someone's wall as we write. My guitar amp would sell for about $5K but it's not for sale. It's the market, that's all."Yes these are works of art but they are also just a hand plane." So why not use it if it's "only a hand plane"? It's not the last one, it wasn't made hundreds of years ago and the materials are still available. It can be replaced, so why not use it? The intrinsic value can be found in it's use, too.How many true "works of art" cost almost nothing to produce at the time? Infill planes- I have seen home-made ones on Ebay, converted Stanleys and the real ones. Malcolm MacPherson makes them and he has posted here a lot, less lately. "You get what you pay for"- sometimes in real terms, sometimes it's only the intangible.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Is someone forcing you to buy one? I don't get what you're ranting about.did<!---->Cure Diabetes - Whitefish, Montana, 2007!<!---->
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Doug,
You have spent an inordinate number of words disparaging Karl Holtey and his products and, by association, anyone else who makes and sells fine tools for lots of money. However, I want to know what you intend to do to redress this terrible state of affairs?
Must we pass a law to prevent this unacceptable face of capitalism?
Perhaps it will need to be a Marxist revolution? Vive Doug, Saviour of International Woodworking!
At the very least, tell us what we should do to improve your woodworking life. Should we club together to buy you a Holtey of your own; or should I nip up the A6 to Scotland and raize him and his workshop to the ground? (We can hunt down the plane-owners later).
When do we hunt The Marcou? Hang on, I believe he may be armed and dangerous when riled up. Also, I will have to put myself up agin' the wall then shoot myself, as I am one of those foolish and boastful rich-piggies who has bought his planes!!
Lataxe, not feeling very red.
The existence of these planes probably does not affect us at all. In fact, they drive down the prices of their competitors because it makes the plane priced between a LN and a Hotley less collectible. So, in essence, you may get your infill for less than you would get it if Hotley didn't exist. If the $2000 Marcou or Sauer & Steiner or $1000 Ray Iles is still seen as costing a "lung," you may just be in the wrong market. You may not be willing to pay the price for this tier of tool. Many of us are not.
We are not the victims of price gouging here. We are not unsheltered hurricane victims fighting for hotel rooms with the national media. If you don't want it, don't get it. If it costs too much for you, so what. Do not challenge what another man makes per hour for his skill when he has a line of employers waiting their turn. Like was previously stated, the extensive waiting list indicates only one thing: that they are priced too low.
I'm actually happy that people are willing to spend this much. If they weren't willing to pay this we would never get to appreciate something as fantastic as Mr. Marcou's miter plane, which I consider to be wonderful (at least visually wonderful). He wouldn't be earning enough to justify not exclusively making furniture and we would be left gazing at his military chests.
Additionally, if you're referring to the "Snobby/snotty" thread when stating "Like was pointed out on another thread some people around here are a bit over the top," you may be missing the point of that post. I believe that the OP in that thread complained about the expensive tools being considered the only option by many, not that LN is charging too much. I have yet to read a post suggesting that a $6000 hand plane should be the only consideration when looking to soften a corner.
Did you go to his website as was suggested to you? Did you miss the part where he says it can take two days just to flatten the sole to his standards? How about the part where he says it takes weeks to make a particular plane? Is he entitled to no return on the tools you can see in the pictures? Should he not be paid for the setup and maintenance required for said tools? Nothing for his knowledge and skills? How long would it take you to accomplish the hex broached adjuster? Must we all buy WalMart tools so as not to drive up prices in your part of town?
Your keyboard has diarrhea.------------------------------------
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer (1891)
One thing to consider is that Karl is able to make (hopefully) a upper middle class income selling his planes. You mentioned the Brass model train locomotives as a comparison. Most of these are now made in China or Korea at best and I doubt the builders of these are making an upper middle class income. And to the person comparing the 90$ bottle water well a fool and their money is soon parted. I certainly don't resent Karl Holtey getting what he can for his planes I just wish I could afford a set. I don't think they would make me a better craftsman or that the end results would be much different than my Lie Neilsens but it would be fun to try them. Troy
Doug, going on your (erroneous) assumptions that it takes a mere 50 hours to churn out a 6K plane I really must congratulate Karl Holtey. He deserves a minimum of $150 per hour to cover his labour(skills), cost of materials, distribution costs, advertising, workshop cat,depreciation,small tools (lots of them), big tools etc etc. Not to mention the fact that he has spent most of his life working to achieve this level of skill, or that cnc equipment and industrial calibre mills lathes etc are not bought at Wallmart.
How much per hour do you believe the man should work for? Philip Marcou
Philip,
<<Doug, going on your (erroneous) assumptions that it takes a mere 50 hours to churn out a 6K plane.....How much per hour do you believe the man should work for?>>
As your compatriot in Geordieshire might say, "Philip, you're a naughty, naughty man...."
;-)Beste Wünschen auf ein glückliches und wohlbehaltenes Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Doug,
Would you ever buy a Porsche? A Ferrari, or a Lamborghini? Karl Holtey makes the finest "racing" planes in the world. Remember, there's a budget for every a$$, and an a$$ for every seat.
Makes' Philip Marcou's planes at $1500 each a bargain, huh?
Jeff
You think Carl Holtley is kidding?
Somebody paid $1500 for this piece of %$#@
Makes a $6000 Holtley look like a good deal to me.
Lee
Oh now you started it:)Troy
Lord I hope none of us misspells his name this time!------------------------------------
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer (1891)
Ever seen the Lamborghini SUV? Overkill before the Hummer was available to the public.
Hello Doug, So does that mean you think I shouldn't sell my firstborn and get the wife that third job so I can buy one of Karl's plane. You know this reminds me of clients of mine who, when told of the cost of treating their pet, tell me that it is too expensive and I should do it cheaper as "You're a vet and you should care for the animal". Sod the fact that it took me years to study to become a vet and that I have to fulfill "continuing professional development" requirements i.e. extra study to keep up. Or the cost of equipment drugs etcetera. To say "IS someone joking" is, basically, rather insulting to Mr Holtey and I think rather unbecoming of a nice chap as you obviously are and I am sure that you did not intend it as such. I, myself, have Mr Lie-Nielsen's tools but would at the drop of a hat, i.e. winning the lottery, be ordering as many of Mr Holtey's planes as I could. Mr Holtey is an ARTIST and should be seen as a living legend. Anyway, try and have a good day and hope your next project turns out well.
Edited 2/2/2007 6:25 am ET by geoff7325
Edited 2/2/2007 7:52 am ET by geoff7325
Geoff,
You're a Vet? I'm asking because I have this problem with my dog....
Just kidding. I have a friend that's a doctor and it's amazing how many people try and suck free advice out of him. No matter what is ailing them, he politely tells them he's a proctologist, but to come on in to his office and he will "take a look at them". Hasn't had one person show up yet.
Cheers,
Lee
Lee,
You would be surprised the number of people who try and pick my brain re their own ailments. I just tell them that the medication I have has the nasty side effect in humans that after 3-4days they will start to lick their own... well you can guess.
Getting back to this thread I wonder if Doug, out of inexperience, made an off the cuff comment that has attracted more attention than he thought and is responding out of defence. I think he should be given the benefit of the doubt. Some people think that Lie-Nielsen tools expensive but when you factor in the time it would take to attain the degree of tuning/lapping etcetera that you would need to do to a good old Stanley these are cheap - struth only 1 dog caesarian for a number 8! Bargain! Now notch that up a factor of ten and Mr Holteys are a bargain. Someone mentioned that they thought he even uses a diamond file on the knurling on the adjustment wheels - it is incredibly crisp. I have had my thumb cut on some rough knurling on a plane- so no surgery that week and what did that cost me? It is all relative.
So how about giving Doug a break over this one?
Geoff,
So how about giving Doug a break over this one?
Who's Doug? I was just tossing out some light-hearted doctor humor. Ha Ha!
Cheers,
Lee
I started to make a reply to the comments from before that others have made on this thread. But I think their is little point. I am sorry but anyone that thinks that 6000 plus for a hand plane is a Good and fair price has little understanding of the value of a dollar. I don't care if they guy can only make one a year. The point is and was that a hand plane for 6000 or more is just way over the top. And yes so is a Ferrari. IF you don't understand that then I guess you just have a way different view on what a dollar is worth.
Doug
Doug, you're missing the point. It's really a $6000 piece of functional sculpture which looks like a plane and will function like a very, very good plane if the owner so chooses. Similar to the $50,000 shotgun, $600,000 sports car or some studio "furniture" for that matter. On that basis the $6000 price may provide a reasonble return to Mr Holteyfor his time, expertise and investment.
On the other hand the $6000 plane makes no sense if it's only considered from the standpoint of a functioning tool. I doubt anyone would consider paying $6000 for any plane no matter how well it functioned if it was virtually indistinguisable from a run of the mill Lie-Nielsen, and didn't come "signed".
For those who want a little bit of the Holtey status at a far low price, he offers plane blades at price much closer to the alternatives. Your mundane LN, LV, Stanley, Craftsman, etc plane can sport a genuine Holtey logo for less than the price of a new LN or LV plane. I have my doubts though about how much better a Holtey blade would perform than the better quality alternatives, particularly once it was used enough to have been resharpened several times.
The fact that you don't see any point in a really, really, really expensive hand plane isn't about the universal value of a dollar because it's not universal. It's just that you don't see any point in this kind of product, at this price. Nothing for anyone to get all bunched up about, it's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I'm not going to drop a quarter mil on a car or a Holtey plane but when someone can make something of exceptional quality and precision, I appreciate their abilities and any design improvements they make. It's like anything else- once yo get to a certain level of quality, the improvements become smaller and smaller as the price goes up. A good part of the whole Holtey mystique/price point is marketing and distribution, too. I don't know if you have looked at the disassembled planes on the Holtey site but there are a lot of parts and the assembly can't be too fast but mass produced, they aren't. If he only makes one per year, he's not a very good businessman unless he's still making a profit on the one he does make. Who knows, this may be the result of a bet to see who can get the most for their tools. I was at WoodCraft today and they had two Holtey block plane irons at 75% off, so I bought one. I can't buy a Stanley iron for the price of this one and it's better steel but the paper shows the name of a company in New Hampshire that makes the irons so Holtey is just blessing them. To be honest, it's not particularly impressive- the blank is just stamped out and they don't finish the edges the way they do on the whole planes. In the papers that came with it, it says that I have bought the finest plane iron ever made. I'm so very pleased. I also feel bad for all of the others who bought the same thing because apparently, mine is better and they paid more. Anyone who says that their product is the finest ever made is either correct or full of crap. It's marketing, plain and simple. Someone will always buy the most expensive thing on the planet BECAUSE THEY CAN. Price is based on how much it costs to produce and bring something to market or how much people will pay for it. Some things are overpriced but it really doesn't matter because it just boils down to a difference of opinion. If someone can make something, they should if it makes sense. If they can't and absolutely have to have a particular item, they have to pay the going rate. The world will keep turning whether Holtey keeps making and selling his planes or not.I don't know if you have ever worked on or really looked at a Ferrari closely but the price is more over the top than people think.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
High, I am done with the main subject of this thread except for a mischievous urge to point out that the mighty dollar is, and has been, on a steadily increasing rate of depreciation-and according to the Fed it will continue for some time. On the other hand the British pound is gaining value, so this means that Holtey planes will not just be over the top-they will be outta sight man.....
"the blank is just stamped out and they don't finish the edges the way they do on the whole planes."
I do know someone who pays particular attention to this point,(one of many) ensuring that the rear edge of his blades are as smooth as the faces, and bevelled by snappy use of belt grinder-this is visually pleasing and also protects the operator. When Veritas blades are used by him they are given the same treatment, but to a lesser extent as these are smoothish anyway. The good news is that even though this is a fairly skillful process, it is quickly done, so there is no need to go "over the top"..... (;)(;)Philip Marcou
"I do know someone who pays particular attention to this point,(one of many)"And, who would that be? (nudge, nudge, wink, wink)I guess I'll see how it is- I just thought the sticker price of $84.95 was a bit much for a block plane iron that can be bought from L-N for $30-$35. If it hadn't been on sale, I would have bought the L-N since they're both made from the same steel, as I said and assuming there's a decent level of consistency in the heat treating, comparing it to my #7 L-N iron should be fair.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
"the paper shows the name of a company in New Hampshire that makes the irons so Holtey is just blessing them. To be honest, it's not particularly impressive- the blank is just stamped out and they don't finish the edges the way they do on the whole planes."
Interesting. Any possiblity of mis-interpreting the paper? I wonder if Karl Holtey actually touches the blades, or is this basically another example of using a very high end brand to market a less expensive product. I had assumed that the blades sold separately were actually made by Hotley to the same quality level as the blades which are sold with his planes.
The first line is "You have purchased the finest plane iron ever made". It also mentions A2 HSS and proprietary space age metallurgical techniques, this iron will maintain a far keener edge for up to 5 times longer than any high carbon western or oriental. Also that "This is exactly the same method used to create the irons for our famous handplanes". It then goes on to say that microbevels are a waste of time and metal. They also have a number to receive all faxed questions and comments.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I don't usually post on this forum but feel that some clarification is needed here.
All my retro fit blades are made in house by myself. The blades have been profiled by cnc milling and drilling, the two surfaces pre-ground on a lumsden grinder.
The only outsourced item is the heat treatment - and always will be - as this involves a very complex process in vacuum conditions, along with triple tempering and a long subzero soak. This is an expensive process but ensures that the performance of the blade will be better that the standard blade on the market; the analysis of the alloys used are a critical factor because all A2 is not the same.
For the past two years I have been doing my own surface grinding. Only the blades used in my planes will have the edges treated, the retro fit blades are left as milled. Some of the earlier retro fit blades were profiled by laser (with nitrogen cooling, not oxygen) and not milled. If I was to finish these blades to the same standard as the blades in my planes the price would be higher.
Karl Holtey
Karl,
Thanks for the explanation, I do not think that people really appreciate how much additional effort has to be applied to 'finishing' some of these components that contribute to a marvelous whole.
Dave
Thanks for taking time to clear things up. I'll have to check to see if the local Woodcraft store has a Holtey blade for a #4 bench plane.
My dollar is worth what I am willing to pay for things, yours is worth what YOU are willing to pay for things. Why should my preferences be more "correct" than yours, or more to the point, why should yours be more "correct" than mine. Preferences are ALL relative.
If someone is making $300,000 a year, or if he is making $5,000,000 a year (like my boss at a previous job) they may have different choices to make than someone making $75,000 or $35,000 or $105,000 a year .
I am sorry to disagree with you but just because you can afford something does not make it worth what you are willing to pay. If someone wants to charge you $9 a gallon for gas when it is selling elsewhere for $2.25 and you are willing to pay it does that make the gas worth $9? I don't think so. It just means you can afford it.
I also think that these high costs will effect the rest of us. As I think that everyone will look at what the other guy is getting for his planes and think that they could just get a bit more. So one guy will raise his then someone else will and the spiral starts. I have seen this happen elsewhere.
Also I think that the point that several people here have missed is that this type of plane and this maker in particular have been talked about on several threads both here and in other forums. And not just to say they exist, but to indicate that this is the type of plane that is the best and thus the one you should someday try to get, and I think this idea is more then a bit unreasonable. This would be like suggesting that the only way to really enjoy driving a car is to spend a million plus on a Ferrari.
Once again this is why they make chocolate and vanilla. I do find it interesting that most the people that have responded to this thread seam to not have an issue with this. And frankly that shocks me more then a bit. I expect at least a few people to be more in line with my thinking and I think that this may be the biggest shock I have gotten on this forum. I have trouble believing that I am the only person that thinks these things are way to expensive to justify. If I am I wonder what that says about the people on this forum?
Doug Meyer
I think what it says about most people on this forum is that we believe in a free market and free choice.
How do you feel about "From each according to his ability, To each according to his needs" ?------------------------------------
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer (1891)
"From each according to his ability, To each according to his needs" ?Easy, there. That wouldn't have been a bad system if the government didn't make it mandatory, set the prices & rates, pay scales, controlling everything, remove all incentive and the givers and takers were completely honest about their ability or needs. The goal of making the people completely dependent on the government sire did work, though. How about this one- "We'll pretend to pay you if you pretend to work".
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
It would never work, government involvement or not. People are full of greed, not altruism. In fact you contradict your self, if the prices, pay and production are not set, it would not be a system of, “from each, to each”. That is why socialism fails and capitalism thrives.
I think people are only altruistic on paper. Actually, people are a lot of things, on paper. In practice, not usually what they say.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I’m never altruistic, on paper or otherwise. Long live objectivism!
I'm not sure how I feel about your response. HA!
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Speaking as an objectivist, I do not even concern myself with your feelings.
Hence, HA!
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
HF and Napie, ya just made me remember a cartoon in an old mag of ill repute. Scene, in doctors office and the shrink is saying to the guy on the couch, " Sir please realize that you have totally lost touch with the reality of the world that we live in..you lucky son of a b!-ch". Paddy
Yeah, I remember some of the cartoons from those mags and I can't really think of any that are repeatable.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
paddydahat
Isn't that what a fine whiskey is all about? :-) JL
I only asked how he felt about it, I did'nt mean to imply he was one! :) More to get him thinking than anything.
As to the second matter, is that akin to I'll gladly pay you for the smell of your bread with the sight of my money?
On an unrelated matter, do you mind if I e-mail you on the back channel about some audio matters?------------------------------------
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer (1891)
Sure- I'll listen for your message.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
An item's value is measured by what people are willing to pay. Therefore, if someone is willing to pay $6,000 for a plane, it's value, to that person, must be $6,000. Might not have the same value to other people. If I choose to pay $9 for a gallon of gas, then it's obviously worth it to me. Heavens, many people pay $2 for a bottle of water, when it comes free from a tap. People pay $5 for a cup of coffee, because someone gives it a fancy name. So what?
I believe that thousands of people are watching a bunch of people throw a ball around right now. That's crazy, because you can go down to any schoolyard and watch kids throw a ball for free. By your rules, this whole thing on TV is utterly worthless. I expect people don't agree with that idea, though.
Doug,
I'm sure there are people who agree with you, people who disagree, and people who are somewhere in between. I identify with the sentiment that they are economically out of reach for most, but I don't identify with the outrage.
There are lots of things I can't afford, but nevertheless respect their value. In the grand scheme of things, these Holtey planes appear to be luxuries that have a relatively low impact on the world, so in my opinion, they are different than, say, MacMansions, SUVs, and even fruit shipped halfway around the world. I would compare Holtey planes with very fine furniture -- a combination of art and artfully constructed and designed functionality. The "huntboard" that Garrett Hack made that was on the cover of a recent issue of FWW was sold for over $10,000 if I recall correctly. Certainly this value exceeds the sum total of its parts, and it would be unfair to compare it to a similar piece by Moser let alone IKEA. I am astonished by Mr. Hack's artistry and skill and it pleases me somewhat that somewhere out there, there exist patrons who support this kind of work financially. I just hope they use coasters when they set down their mint juleps on that huntboard!!! Anyhow, isn't it possible to see these things as relatively insignificant in macroeconomic terms but significant for something less tangible, like the human appreciation of individually achieved excellence? I will never own one of those planes but they symbolize the fragile survival of a kind of nobility of construction that is so very lacking in an economy ruled by Walmart and Costco.
-Andy
Doug-After all the replies pointing out that a Holtey or Marcou plane is not just a plane but a work of art in limited supply, you still are hung up on the commodity comparison. "If someone wants to charge you $9 a gallon for gas when it is selling elsewhere for $2.25 and you are willing to pay it does that make the gas worth $9?" That analogy is simply inapt.Your analysis is comparable to a cost-plus-materials pricing of a Van Gogh painting. Let's see, he probably used less than a gallon of paint. Give him a full week to do the work. Eighty hours at $20/hour; allow something for overhead and brush replacement. It still comes to less than $2K."I also think that these high costs will effect (sic) the rest of us. As I think that everyone will look at what the other guy is getting for his planes and think that they could just get a bit more. So one guy will raise his then someone else will and the spiral starts." I'm willing to bet you up to fifty cents that the managers of the factory that makes Anant planes do not consider Karl Hotley their competition, and that they do not consider his planes in their own price setting."And not just to say they exist, but to indicate that this is the type of plane that is the best and thus the one you should someday try to get..." Can you point to a single reference of someone saying that a Holtey plane is the one that someone should try to get (for working wood)? I thought not."I do find it interesting that most the people that have responded to this thread seam (sic) to not have an issue with this." The "this" I assume to be the concentrated efforts to force you to buy a Holtey plane. I don't read the replies to your original post in that way."I have trouble believing that I am the only person that thinks these things are way to (sic) expensive to justify. If I am I wonder what that says about the people on this forum?" Rather than wonder what that says about the people on this forum, you should consider what it says about you. In my opinion, you've failed to learn anything from the many posts that have tried to point out to you basic economic facts of a competitive market. You say that "...these things are way too expensive to justify." If you mean by that you can't justify buying a Holtey plane for your particular needs and budget, fine. But isn't it presumptuous to say (which I think you are saying) that no one in the whole wide world should justify such a purchase in any circumstances? Presumptuous because you have no way of knowing others' needs, desires, objects of admiration, and budget.If you indeed think that no person should pay the going price for a Holtey plane, then I think you owe us an answer to the question that Lataxe raised: What should be done about it?
This is so simple; the price of anything is set by the buyer, period. And that is how capitalism works. Believe me, I sell for a living and I DO NOT set the price, the buyer does. If these planes are scarce and in short supply, then the buyers who desire them set the price, and it is high.
<!----><!----> <!---->
Do you believe that some entity should set prices? Should they be controlled? Also, you make comparisons between these custom made items and commodity products like gasoline. That just does not work. You state that you have seen this price spiral before, for what products? I have seen just the opposite, look at televisions.
<!----> <!---->
And who are you to tell me just what type of tool, or anything else for that matter, I should aspire to own? What is your position as guardian of my buying habits? The reason that no one agrees with you is that you are wrong, and what is says about the folks on this forum is that they are intelligent and believe in the freedom to conduct their business as they chose’s. You are, by your statements at least, a socialist.
There are things that have a set price (Bose is an example). People buy them because they either want them or they think they want them, based on what they have heard about the product, have actually experienced or because they want to "keep up with the Jones's". Supply and demand generally do a great job of tempering pressures from all sides and this is really no different. Precedent makes a big difference with things like collectibles and usable collectibles and if the demand drops for Holtey planes, the price will, too. It'll be a sad day when the government is allowed to set prices at their whim.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Doug
I get the impression that , for you, the argument is more important than the topic. You are energized by the scuffle, so there is no way you will ever back up even a little.
I have a vivid imagination and I can one day see you coming into a sack full of money. One of the things you are going to do with the money is buy a couple of each of the masterpiece planes on the market. You will then become a closet planer, preparing your stock with the finest of tools when nobody is watching. :-) JL
You bring up an interesting situation. Have you ever noticed that the first thing a huge number of people do when they come into money, is buy a car? What a bad investment! I'm not talking about collectible cars, I'm talking about whatever is affordable, trendy, gotta have it even though it's a completely worthless POS kind of cars.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I don't know about worthless; it is just that there is a whole lot of protesting going on about something that is a personal decision...buying a piece of art, or tool or whatever and paying the price we feel is fair and warranted for whatever we are buying.
It doesn't sit right to be brow-beaten because someone feels I am wasting my money, that I earned, on something that they say they wouldn't buy. Fact is, it is none of Doug's affair what I buy or don't buy. This is not a discussion about the technique of gluing up solid wood boards, where there is room for differences. This is about becoming involved in my choices in personal lifestyle.
Doug, you have the right to argue the merits of the tool...the way it looks, the way it cuts, even the price and why you find it high or low or just right. You have no right to step into the realm of right and wrong about my buying preferences because now you are trying to exercise control over me. I have not and will not permit you that power. You also haven't the right to judge the people building the planes on the level of professional integrity and how it relates to their pricing policies because you have not walked in their shoes. A free market allows the consumer choice, buy or do not buy. Even when I look at your gasoline example. if you feel that Exxon and Mobil are being piggish, you have the option of not driving and then you will not have to purchase any gasoline. JL
Jeanlou, that makes me laugh.... You know what? Brother Doug has avoided answering some simple questions I asked him, so when he comes along with the sacks of money he will find that the prices have magically doubled-and he won't even know why.Philip Marcou
Philip
I somehow doubt that even if the the price were halved, he would find things to his liking. He is on a crusade to stop technological advancement. Fortunately, he will fail.
He does not see that it is people like you who make it possible, through your vision and devotion and sacrifice, for real change to happen. I hope that one day you can triple the cost of your planes and quadruple your client base. If it happens, I know that it will be justified.
With respect. JL
I'm sorry, but you are missing the point. You seem to know that you know what is, or is not, reasonable for other people to pay for some commodity. For you to make that assertion is to say that you believe you are superior to them. No one should accept such a judgement by others, and even more no one should anyone make such an assertion. It is no more unreasonable for them to pay 6,000 for a particular plane, than it would be for them to pay $60 for it, or $600,000. Reasonableness doesn't enter into the formation of preferences. Economic rationality says NOTHING about the reasonableness of preferences.
Your gasoline example isn't apropos of anything. We all have occasions where we are willing to pay $9 per gallon of gas (to get to a job interview, take a child to the emergency room, etc. etc.) But we don't pay it because of competition. The fact that we all are willing to pay a price much higher than the market price helps explain why trading occurs. Both seller and buyer benefits from the exchange. Buyers receive consumer surplus from the gasoline they buy for $2.30 for which they would have been willing to pay $9. That's not the force behind spiraling prices.
Who are you to say, or me, to say that driving a Ferrari isn't the only way for some other person to really enjoy driving. Why buy anything except for its most utilitarian benefit. Why own a VanGogh--a photograph of sunflower fields ought to suffice. And, perhaps my childs crayon rendering would be preferable to either. These are judgements that can only be made by the person actually involved, and taking account of his/her economic situation and her/his preference. Going back to Economics 1--water is nearly free, and diamond gems very dear, despite the absolute necessity for life of one, and frivolous conspicuous consumption of the other. (Assume gemstones don't have industrial uses.)
The reason that no one is "in line with your thinking" shouldn't be at all shocking. Most of us in the West at least believe that preferences are individual so that saying someone's preferences (as opposed to his understanding of the facts) are wrong is considered a very arrogant opinion. Our national creed in the USA declares that..."all men are created equal" is a self-evident truth. The unfortunate history of dishonoring that truth in so many ways doesn't make it any less true, nor make it any less of a goal to strive toward. This creed doesn't allow the assertion of superior being, only superior knowledge or effort. But to assert superior preferences is an assertion of superior being, not of superior knowledge. So of course, you become the odd man out. What it says about those on the forum is merely that they don't believe anyone can tell them what they should want, or should not want.
If approached another, less offensive way, the vast majority, as would I, might well agree that they would not pay $6,000 for such a plane. But that is another matter entirely. And, that is the point you seem to not understand.
Anytime there is a product that is in high demand and is available in limited supply the price goes up in substantially. It's just that simple. The trick to the thing is being the one that produces the product.Ron
So should no one pay a high price for a painting or a sculpture instead of paying much less for a good reproduction? Or maybe a painting by an relatively unknown artist?
Personally I'd rather see money going for an exceptional job of metal and wood machining, fabrication and finishing that winds up looking and functioning as a plane than for a lot of what passes for art. $6000 isn't an exceptional amount to pay for art.
On the other hand I would have a hard time believing someone who told me they bought a Holtey plane solely because of how well it functioned compared to other, less expensive planes.
I also doubt the prices for Holtey planes will have any effect on the prices of Lie-Nielsen planes. I do suspect though that Lee Valley has had an effect on LN prices with their Veritas planes.
Doug,
Rather than just hold a single opinion on this matter (or any other) why not have a little head-play for an hour or two and try to imagine yourself as Karl Holtey? Ask yourself why he makes these things in the manner he does; imagine what can be driving him?
Also try on the head of a Holtey plane buyer. Why do they want one and pay so much for it, do you think? What is different about their attitude and yours concerning these planes? My income is just under £15,000 a year net and I do not have zillions in the bank. Why did I spend £2000 on a couple of Marcous but won't buy a Holtey, do you think?
In playing these imaginative scenarios, you might also look in your own past for times when you have bought something expensive, then examine your motives without the usual "rationalisation after the fact" that all we humans indulge in. Were you purely interested only in the utility and cost of everything you bought?
Of course, you might find all this empathising too shocking (other people's heads - ugh)! :-)
Lataxe
It is interesting what drives people to pay a lot of money for something that may or may not have the intrinsic value to justify it.
I have two purchases that count. A full cabinetmakers tool chest c. 1850 - 75 and a 1969 Martin N-20 just like Willie's (minus the soundhole modification, mines in very good condition).
Both were things that I had been looking for and had wanted for a long time. Both cost enough money that it was a hardship to come up with it and both seemed at the time to be a "once in a lifetime opportunity."
I think the first two things always are present when one makes that sort of purchase (wanting the item badly and the sobering fact of having to part with a lot of money to get it). But the third thing is the killer, the feeling that if I don't get this now it may never again be available or may be way more expensive. That's what drove my purchases.
I can see the same being true of the Marcou planes. His work (judging by the pictures) is the equal of a Holtey, but comparatively his prices are a bargain. So perhaps there's a sense that if you get one NOW before he doubles his price, you will have gotten a bargain.
I do think the whole thing's kind of a silly debate. There is nothing universal about value, it's in the eye of the beholder.
My wife shakes her head every time a box comes in the mail for me and show her yet another rusty old hunk of iron and wood. She cannot see the value at all. There's no use in trying to explain it to her.
Sort of a "If I have to explain it to you, you probably won't get it" thing.
David C.
Sure, I agree with everybody who says we ought to be able to buy whatever we want for whatever price we are willing to pay. But I also think there is a subtext in Doug's comments on all this. For him, I think the main issue is values (ethical, not monetary). In some respects, he is the forlorn voice in our consumer-mad wilderness, at a time when the gap between the haves and the have nots is increasing, who is asking the painful question of what we should be doing with our resources -- collective and individual.And that, I think, is an interesting question.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
"In some respects, he is the forlorn voice in our consumer-mad wilderness, at a time when the gap between the haves and the have nots is increasing, who is asking the painful question of what we should be doing with our resources -- collective and individual."I thought this was part of the woodworking area of the forum.If someone thinks those who have should be required to give to those who haven't, that's fine- but they shouldn't try to force others to go along with it, either in deed or ideology. I don't think anyone has ever come to a Fine WoodWorking forum with hopes or thoughts of being told that they shouldn't buy something just because it's extremely expensive and doing so is a waste of money. There are people here who make extremely expensive furniture, homes and other items- should they stop charging those prices so everyone can afford to buy what they make or because someone thinks they should? No, they shouldn't. I don't think anyone here asked for someone to act as their conscience."I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 2/5/2007 8:35 pm by highfigh
I will let Doug speak for himself. But I'm certainly not talking about compelling anybody to do (or not do) anything with their money.But from a strictly values/ethical perspective, I think there is something very admirable about the choices a guy like Warren Buffet has made for the way he conducts his personal life. If he wanted to, for example, he could afford to buy a 100 castles around the world, but he's still living in the same old house he's had for some 40 years.Yet, he has no problem visiting his friend Bill Gates, and probably staying in the spare BR of the house he built for, what was it, 25 mil?We all get to pick who we admire, and I am just giving Doug Meyer a pat on the back for stepping onto this hot gridle and saying what he had to say. ********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
nikkiwood
Doug is a guy that enjoys the heat of the griddle. He will survive and be back to scuffle another day. After all, no one is saying he can't come back.
I am not so sure that I want him to be my moral spokesman, though. He may mean well, so St Peter will have no problem opening the door, but his readiness to go into attack mode is not the profile of a spokesman for the group's morality. He reminds me of a comic book character I used to read about in the older, way older Marvel comics. Bizarro. Bizzarro always twisted what was "right" and made it "wrong", even though his intent was to do good.
When someone steps on my foot and turns around and says "I am sorry", and then stomps away, I still have to deal with a sore foot. JL
I don't have a high tolerance for preaching myself, particularly when it is couched in terms of what I should or shouldn't do. But looking beyond the messianic slant to his comments, I thought the content of what he had to say was interesting and merited some discussion. Heck, earlier tonight I commented in a thread where the poster wanted to get some feedback before buying a Harbor Freight compressor. Because of my Riverprof "experience" I didn't want to bluntly lambast the idea, and instead, tried to give the guy a frame of reference in which I thought he could make a decision that was best for him. My point is: in the same way Riverprof provided some worthwhile insight to how many of us function around here, I think Doug Meyer touched on some issues that do warrant a bit of chewing and consideration.Lately, I think there has been a tendency here to viscerally attack without much regard to the underlying issues, questions, intent, etc. In other words, dialog has too often regressed to a blood sport, and I have been guilty along with a number of my fellow knotheads.Somewhere in a thread tonight, one newbie said he'd rather search the archives for answers to his questions than "risk" posing a question among the current threads. And I think that's a shame.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
nikkiwood
I saw that newbie's comment, and he did make a point. I hope that it helps soften some of the regulars.
I agree that Doug has a great deal to say and contribute, but style will always trump content. Until he figures out that the way he presents what he has to say is what decides if people will react to his delivery or listen and debate his message, the forum will not always be kind to him. JL
JL,
I recall Wonder Warthog, who had a similar propensity for doing good but seemed to always accidentally raze the victims to the ground before discovering the bad guys had long gone with the loot. Oops! (But he soon put these awkward incidents behind him). On to the next righteous razing!
Nikkiwood has a point about rabid consumerism. Oftimes I read the Situationists and wonder what they would make of The Current Spectacle. However, ideology and utopias are one kind of thing and the hard, cruel world is another.
In the end I think, "I am very lucky" and give another £100 a year to the cat or horse rescue scheme.
Lataxe
Lataxe
Judgement aside, the United States drives the western world's attitudes and perceptions (maybe even the whole world). Europe claims a difference, but I feel that it falls in step even though the protests are sometimes very vocal. Canada has been economically American for as long as I can remember.
Consumerism is part of the world's culture whether we like it or not. Individuals can slow their personal participation, but short of living as a hermit in the deepest forest or on the highest mountain, we all participate in the lifestyle to one level or another.
Doug is a lonely voice in the wilderness with a message that may very well have merit, but the arguments he presents become abrasive...and then he loses his audience. JL
Buying works of art (whether functional or not) that are made in limited numbers by a one-man operation is not "consumerism," no matter how expensive the pieces become --- the emphasis is placed on their special production, not on the consumption. The only reason they appear to have to do with consumerism is when viewed through the lense of consumerism itself. When viewed from the point of view of consumerism, unique production processes seem to lack efficiency and even appear ridiculous, and the purchase of such an expensive item appears to lack reason. My argument would be that Doug attempted to critique consumerism but his argument betrayed how caught up he is in it.It's the difference between buying furniture from IKEA vs. from Garrett Hack. In one case the production is hidden and full of processes that make the business worthwhile to those running it from desks, and in the other case, the buyer has a door opened into non-industrial production processes that are simply not efficient or reasonable from a consumerist standpoint -- which he further supports through his purchase.
-Andy
Andy
How about art that is made on a production line to feed a tourist market. Is it art or is it consumerism, as you call it? This exists everywhere art is sold to tourists...and is there a place for this product? After all, if no one wanted it and did not buy it, then production would definitely grind to a halt. JL
JL,
that's the case with almost everything that is produced by human hands in order to be sold. The objects you described _do_ relate to consumerism. Sure, there is a place for it, and it doesn't mean that it is or is not art; the criteria for art are really an ongoing debate that will never end -- anyone can say that any thing is art, but only a limited number of people are aware of where their own ideas about art really come from!I'm objecting to the equation of consumerism with people buying "high priced" goods as such; I think it overlooks the possibility that the production of a plane by Holtey, or a cabinet by Garrett Hack, could actually be a way of contesting consumerism. Not all high-priced goods are products of the same sort of consciousness (or lack thereof), and in fact "consumerism" may well relate more to the markets demand for cheap, low-end products than to the high-end. If someone wants to critique consumerism, I think that Holtey planes and purchasers are a poor object of study.
-Andy
Edited 2/7/2007 11:32 am ET by VTAndy
Of course he does have his own Gulfstream IV SP. That one plane for flying is about 5,000 Holty planes for dressing wood.
Yes ------ i just knew somebody would bring up the jet<G>.OTOH, if I were as old as he is, and flew around as much as he does, and had as much money -- I think I would consider the jet a necessity, and not a luxury.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I don't in the least begrudge him the jet. The example merely shows that what might be an expensive and frivolous luxury for the merely rich, could be the choice of a quite "reasonable" choice for one of the richest men in the world, just as a plane at 1/5000 of the price could be a quite reasonable choice for people much less wealthy. Someone bent on a Holtey can fund theirs by stepping down a grade in the car they drive for a few years--a pretty minor sacrifice given the increased quality levels of all cars these days.
I think your point about Buffet living in the same house for a long time is a good one. We still haven't heard why he stays there, as AFAIK but it could be just a sound money matter- "it's paid for, why spend money on a different one when this one is appreciating nicely?". It could be that he just likes it a lot, regardless of whether he has to pay a mortgage or not. His living in the same house for 40+ years and having no problem with staying at Gates' house means that he accepts other people spending their own money in whatever way they want. If Gates paid that much and couldn't afford the upkeep, taxes, etc, it would have been a bad decision on his part because building it without being able to pay the rest is really short-sighted. Personally, and I have said it in these threads many times, I think more people should live more simply, use what they buy more completely and waste far less than they do. Following trends is OK for some people but most of the trendy things aren't really needed in order to have a good, full life. That's my opinion but I'm not going to make such a strong statement about it that others get in my face about how I present it. I have known people who really hated other people having more than they need and more than their grandchildren will ever spend. I told them that what they have, get and do is their life and what the other person has, gets and does is their life. It really doesn't matter if someone who is rolling in money shells out $25M for a house that has access cards for each guest and a computerized database with each repeat guest's musical, artistic, lighting and climate preferences stored so that as soon as they go into their room, it changes the scene to what's in their folders. That's their life. The people who set up the house this way made a lot of money on the Gates house systems but since nobody really needs that is it bad that they charged what they did? No, it's the same thing as Holtey planes going for $6000 or £6000. He has a reputation for making high quality planes and has every right to get whatever he can for them. Should I have a problem with clients who live in huge houses and have really nice antique furniture, along with really cool modern things that cost a bundle? No. That's their life, not mine. I know what those people want and try hard to give it to them when they call me. Could they live well without all of that, sure. OTOH, a lot of what wealthy people buy isn't just "more stuff", they tend to buy things that are actually "assets" and will become more valuable. Artwork, furnishings, homes, cars- they're all collectible if they're the right ones and if someone has a fascination with tools, they have every right to collect as many as they want.Doug has definitely taken his lumps for this but I see that he hasn't gone away, which is a good thing. I don't think anyone should be chased out unless they're totally out of line.Sorry for the ramble.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
highfigh
Doug is a survivor, but I sometimes think he enjoys getting a beating.
I hope that he doesn't go away. He is a catalyst for discussion, argument and frustration, but never is he boring. JL
I really don't have a problem with how any particular person chooses to live their life. But I do think there are larger structural, societal issues in play here. For instance, the gap between the haves and the have-nots is increasing exponentially. During the 70's the average CEO earned about 30 times as much as the average worker. Now that CEO figure is about 300 times the average worker. At the same time, the kind of jobs that have supported the middle class in this country have steadily disappeared or are getting shakey. I wouldn't say we are any where near a crisis point, but I do think we have reached a juncture where we need to start having serious discussions about our national values.I am in no way critical of Mr. Holtey for charging $6000 for a plane, nor am I critical about any person who buys one at that price. But I am interested in the values that are involved in the whole transaction, particularly on the buyer's side. Incidentally, one other thing I like about Buffet is that he has made sure his children will be financially secure, but in giving the great bulk of his assets to the Gates foundation, he has chosen not to create a family dynasty that will hold sway in pertuity.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
The gap between the CEOs of huge corporations and the lowest wage workers is a function of how afraid the corporate boards are of losing someone who they view as being able to deliver high profits and the greed of the CEOs, who demand ridiculous compensation and severance packages. Another factor is that too many kids have parents who don't do their job and don't demand that their kids finish high school so they can get decent jobs. Sure, some people quit school and go on to make good money but it's getting harder all the time. The material taught in some classes would have been unheard of twenty years ago and some would have been taught years later. Some just aren't prepared for the level of thought needed to pass all of their courses. There are a lot of good paying jobs out there. Part of the problem is that so many people don't have the skills required to meet the changing needs of the job market. For some jobs, it's a matter of people not wanting to work that hard. It's hard to pinpoint who's to blame for the gap. A lot of it has to be placed squarely on greed and arrogance. Some people are truly brilliant and the should be compensated well. For someone who highly values precision, tools like these are great. They aren't watches or miniature, complex machines but they really are well made and from all indications, do a great job of what they are designed for. Someone who will actually use a plane like this sees it on a different level, IMO. They see it as a well made tool which isn't for setting on a shelf or in a glass case. I suspect that a lot of them are in cases and I can think of a lot of things that cost more but are totally incapable of doing anything useful (baseball cards leap to mind). $300K -$500K for a baseball hit by someone using steroids? Yeah? What can that do that's useful? I'm doing a home theater job for a client who wants a good tube amp for his main speakers and is planning to drop about $5000 for it. Is that wrong?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
While I do agree that an awful lot of people only care about what they own and impressing others with their things, not what kind of person they are, what good things they do for others and not how they treat others, I think this and some of the other threads were posted in the wrong place. I don't think we come here to be told what to do or that someone is making too much money for what they have done, which in some cases, is creating a market for their goods that really didn't exist before. $6000 or £6000 is a helluva lot of money for a handplane but I have also read that way back, someone would have to shell out two weeks pay for one. I suppose nobody here saved up for 6 months or a year to buy a bike when they were a kid, right? What's really the difference? It's a case of wanting something and making it happen.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Doug (sorry Rich, I hit your name in error)
I am always intrigued by people who enjoy counting other people 's money from a distance. I have known several people like this during my adult life, and they were all invariably wrong in their stereotypical assumptions.
I see the planes being discussed as objects of art, and as such, they can not be looked at in the same light as a utilitarian tool, no matter its level of quality.
If I collected tools, I would buy as many of these artworks as I could afford. It would be an investment and not a simple expenditure.. Since I do not collect tools, I don't.. I do, however, collect art, and pay the price, if I love the piece and the spirit moves me. It is my money and therefore my choice.
Besides doing commercial woodwork and construction, I also sculpt and make wooden and mixed media jewellery. I sell through a coop of artists that I am a member of. When I do my monthly duties in our store, I hear people commenting on the work (everyone's) and saying things like " that is machine made. It is not worth the price", when in fact it is hand made and grossly under-priced and under-valued. None of us have a clue as to what it takes to make something until we've actually done it. JL
Edited 2/4/2007 7:10 pm ET by jeanlou
Edited 2/4/2007 7:18 pm ET by jeanlou
Jean,
Love that collective noun for artists, or is it your collaborative home/showroom/workshop?
Does this make artists some kin of chickens? perhaps a better qualifier might have been a cote?
in fun, and I absolutely support the idea of this being valued as art - function is almost secondary.
Dave
Dave
When someone works from the heart and the spirit, the result is always art. My definition of art is anything that is produced with inspiration, perspiration and a whole lot of spiritual involvement with the work. JL
Edited 2/8/2007 8:52 pm ET by jeanlou
I have a couple of Stanleys decorating my lounge room (all I can afford and they look pretty) The #45 is also functional in that it kept a 2 year old occupied for over an hour the other week. I guess that compared to a Holtey owner I am a bit like the college student with that "worthless" poster of a rock group on the wall that cost half their weekly allowance?
Patto
There are no absolutes. Whatever you have and cherish is of value..as proven by the 2 year old. See you around mate. JL
Geoff,
I'm having this problem with my cat.
It wouldn't take but a minute to have a look at him. I mean, after all, you're already here, and you aren't really busy right now, so . . .
Dear Rich14,
If you could do a "per rectal" examination with your right index finger and tell me which way the cat's eyes go I can give you a bit of an idea of what is wrong... Only kidding.
Geoff,
I thought you said you are a vet? If so you know only too well what happens if a digit is placed even nearby the strangely attractive nether-whorl of a cat. His eyes swivel on to the fleshiest part of your person, followed in a trice by the claws and teeth.
I know you will have the scars; we would all like to see the pics, please.
Lataxe, a cat-lover (not that sort of love).
How to Give a Cat a Pill1) Pick cat up and cradle it in the crook of your left arm as if holding a baby. Position right forefinger and thumb on either side of cat's mouth and gently apply pressure to cheeks while holding pill in right hand. As cat opens mouth, pop pill into mouth. Allow cat to close mouth and swallow.2) Retrieve pill from floor and cat from behind sofa. Cradle cat in left arm and repeat process.3) Retrieve cat from bedroom, and throw soggy pill away. 4) Take new pill from foil wrap, cradle cat in left arm holding rear paws tightly with left hand. Force jaws open and push pill to back of mouth with right forefinger. Hold mouth shut for a count of ten. 5) Retrieve pill from goldfish bowl and cat from top of wardrobe. Call spouse from garden. 6) Kneel on floor with cat wedged firmly between knees, hold front and rear paws. Ignore low growls emitted by cat. Get spouse to hold head firmly with one hand while forcing wooden ruler into mouth. Drop pill down ruler and rub cat's throat vigorously. 7) Retrieve cat from curtain rail, get another pill from foil wrap. Make note to buy new ruler and repair curtains. Carefully sweep shattered Doulton figurines from hearth and set to one side for gluing later. 8) Wrap cat in large towel and get spouse to lie on cat with head just visible from below armpit. Put pill in end of drinking straw, force mouth open with pencil and blow down drinking straw. 9) Check label to make sure pill not harmful to humans, drink glass of water to take taste away. Apply Band-Aid to spouse's forearm and remove blood from carpet with cold water and soap. 10) Retrieve cat from neighbor's shed. Get another pill. Place cat in cupboard and close door onto neck to leave head showing. Force mouth open with dessert spoon. Flick pill down throat with elastic band. 11) Fetch screwdriver from garage and put door back on hinges. Apply cold compress to cheek and check records for date of last tetanus shot. Throw tee-shirt away and fetch new one from bedroom. 12) Call fire department to retrieve cat from tree across the road. Apologize to neighbor who crashed into fence while swerving to avoid cat. Take last pill from foil-wrap. 13) Tie cat's front paws to rear paws with garden twine and bind tightly to leg of dining table, find heavy duty pruning gloves from shed, force cat's mouth open with small wrench. Push pill into mouth followed by large piece of filet mignon. Hold head vertically and pour 1/2 pint of water down throat to wash pill down. 14) Get spouse to drive you to the emergency room, sit quietly while doctor stitches fingers and forearm and removes pill remnants from right eye. Call furniture store on way home to order new table. 15) Arrange for SPCA to collect cat and call pet shop to see if they have any hamsters or fish.
16) How to give a dog a pill: Embed pill in small glob of peanut butter. Give to dog.
Rich
Posts like this should either be banned completely (since I laughed so much that the family thought I was having a seizure), or they should be compulsory (since I laughed so much that the family thought I was having a seizure). My thanks!
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek, My wife came across it first. I thought I would have to take her to the emergency room for treatment of the convulsions. We laughed so hard, tears were running down our cheeks. Every time we looked at each other for hours it restarted. Rich
Rich, this cat must be related to a very large orange ball of fluff named Pumkin belonging to a dear lady friend. ATTITUDE, while watching TV of a Sunday afternoon sitting on the couch with the gray tabby belly up (looking to be scratched) between us, the orange perpitrator waltzes from the bed room at the left to cross the 18' living room and go to the kitchen to our rear right and at no time looks at us , looks 90 degrees away at all times . When the gray tabby goes to their carpeted post and box she gets beat up upon arrival. She didn't tolerate intruders or turncoats well .
DEFIANCE, my lady was taking a trip back to Europe and bought a $200 carrier and a first class seat for pumkin. Putting her in the carrier was another matter . I will not drag you through the chases about the house(If she had only gone into the bath room we would have had her early) but at the last she looked like that Garfield doll with the suction cups stuck to the window of a minivan(all four legs extended only at the instant that she approached the opening of the carrier)my lady however prevaled and after medical attention to her hands and arms I drove them to JFK. I shall never own a house cat. Paddy the dog lover.
"I shall never own a house cat. Paddy the dog lover." All cats will know that-and give you a tough time. Ther's more to them fleabags than we think there is.
Rich's story was hilarious and I offer some free advice on pill administration: summon one cat as if to feed it (ie make suitable sound that is understood by cat). Lay cat on its back and attach one small spring clamp to loose skin at back of neck-cat immediately becomes comatose, frozen but relaxed-just like they do when the mother grabs them by the neck to carry them. A couple of clothes pegs work the same. Mouth will easily open and you merely drop pill into the back of the throat. Close mouth, remove clamp, and the first thing it does is to swallow. Works every time-especially on the black hyper- active needle toothed fleabag.Philip Marcou
Just remember, dogs have owners, cats have staff.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Doctor,
I have followed your advice. I had a hard time following which way his eyes went. The medics are starting the intravenous lines now. I hear them mumbling something about transfusions . . . I'm a bit weak . . . everything hazy . . .
Struth Rich,
It was real important that you noted which way his eyes went. If they both went to the left i.e left lateral nystagmus, then he could have pitaosis; if it was to the right it could be ownerusneurologiadefecitus ; if they went up it could be herewegoaginitis and if they went down it could be Ilikeitalotus. All advice given in total bad faith.
It's been said, "A fool and his money are soon parted"Personally I purchase what I can afford,If you have the bucks to splurge by all means spend away. When it comes to purchasing tools such as hand planes I go with the lower end price range then as my level of expertise rises I purchase better tools but with that said theres absolutely no way in this world I'm going to pay way more for something than its worth just because someone with deeper pockets than mine thinks it should be worth more just because he says so. As a rule people with more money than others that don't make as much seem to think that just because they pay more for a certain item that should make it better than another item that can serve the same function but for a lot less money. Theres been many,many great projects created with just really cheap tools even things were created with sticks and rocks but because the creator of the project had the knowledge to do the creating the project was created.
I guess what I'm striving to say is personally I want the most expensive and powerful tool in my shop to be my brain and the strength to be able to carry on every day.
Thanks all for listening to my 2 cents worth,now I can go create some sawdust.
Sincerely
Jim at Clark Customs
Deep pockets aren't what make these planes cost that much, they are what make these planes exist. If people weren't willing to pay that they wouldn't be made. Artists would find their time better spent doing something else. If the people you reference disappeared and nobody was willing to pay well over $300, $200 or even $100 for any plane under any circumstance, Holtey wouldn't be making planes of this quality. The collectors are not preventing you from getting this $12000 jointer for $280. Hobbyists that make $100k a year aren't what prevent LN planes from being sold with the same quality for $48.
Nobody here has any problem with an individual that's not willing to spend $400 on a LN, let alone $12k for a Holtey. Nobody is stating that you need this to produce or be respected in your field. You are not losing work due to the existence of this plane. The general opinion on this thread (at least how I have interpreted it) is that individuals can not be the authority to value what something is worth to an entire society. You are, however, the only authority able to judge something's worth to you. If it's not worth your money, it still may be worth mine. This particular item, however, is not.
Well,I went to the shop,I tried and tried to get the hand planes to cooperate and do what I told them to do but to no avail without me or someone to work them THEY JUST REFUSED TO DO WHAT THEY WERE TOLD. But I wasn't just picking on the poor hand tools, no matter how hard I yelled at the power tools the darn things just wouldn't do what I wanted them to do either so needless to say I broke down,and even turned on their switches but wouldn't you know it alls the darn things did was set there and hummmmmm at me(How aggravating) so again I had to take the reigns at either handle stock to joint it or saw it. Now I know what I said above sounds silly but no sillier than someone thinking just because a certain thing costs more it in return works better. I guess all I'm striving to say is get and use what you can afford because truly the most powerful,and hard working tool in the shop and in life is, well you and your brain. Know matter what the circumstances a tools only as good as the operator or a business is only as good as the person running it. People are what makes this world and their abilities not inanimate objects because without people all the inanimate objects would not or for that matter exist.
Sincerely Jim at Clark Customs
I'm glad you decided that the above process was worth your time. If you weren't self employed your boss may have thought that you were wasting it.
I just took a peak at his web site. He has a 28" jointer that is over $13,000.00 at todays conversion rate. This guy must be laughing all the way to the bank. I guess if you have to ask 'how much?', you can't afford it.
Doug,
If someone gave you a free Holtey, and I offered to buy it, what price would you charge me?
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