I was reading an article yesterday on how a lot of schools are rethinking the practicality of “Zero Tolerance”.
Which got me wondering what effect it has had on shop, and art classes, etc.. A wood shop is full of sharp pointy things that will hurt people, and art classes have little carvers for clays, and palette knives for painting.
So, any input on what impact it has had on classes in which sharp objects are the norm?
Replies
We put zero-tolerance inserts in the table saws at my school. :-)
Bill you are in California, and if it would get wierd anywhere it would be there.
So did it impact the classees that need sharp, pointy things? I keep thinking of things like a compass for drafting or geometry, chisles, planes, gouges. I even got to thinking about metal shop, and the brazing rods?
I believe these days, you're very lucky to go to a school that has any kind of a vocational program. Budget cuts over the last twenty years have eliminated these programs from many, many schools because they're so expensive to run, nothing to do with 'zero tolerance'....Jeff
Comparatively if one doesn't count the higher liability premiums shop classes cost a lot less to run than say other programs like say music, theater, or sports which all take a greater chunk of any school districts budget.
Actually, I was making a joke. Zero tolerance versus zero clearance, har har. I teach at a community college, and there is none of the concern you reference. It probably helps that most of our students in the woodworking program are mature adults with stable lives.Bill
"It probably helps that most of our students in the woodworking program are mature adults with stable lives"That leaves me out!
The most dangerous thing in any school are the minds of the students. If they come to school with their minds filled with garbage, they'll rip up something to use as a weapon. GIGO. Teaching values has nothing to do with religion...though that is how some families teach values. I never took shop courses and wish I had these many years later. I might have had a different set of values from the ones I had for too many years only to discover a real set of values years later. But then kids and adults have to be awake for better values to be absorbed and there are too many things putting people to sleep these days.
I was thinking of pencils and pens, or is the typewriter or computer the only way of preserving out thoughts.
Zero tolerance laws absolutely scare me to death. In Savannah, Georgia, about two years ago, an Eagle Scout was suspended and charged with a felony when he showed up at school with his camping gear in his truck, including a hand axe.
I'm in and out of my son's High School parking lot quite often - and I keep a 9mm in my vehicle. So in essence, I'm breaking a federal law each and every time.
My wife is the Art Teacher at the High School, and she still has exacto knives in her classroom for work with clay and print blocks. But the lunchroom workers have to contend with butcher knives that are chained to the cutting boards. No kidding.
Then there is the baseball team, walking the halls with their bat bags. I believe I could do a lot of damage with an aluminum baseball bat. Where do you draw the line ?
Greg
Edited 6/18/2007 1:49 pm ET by GregGibson
Jigs,
In our local school district they have pared the budget for woodworking/shop almost completely out. Which is unfortunate as I have read that it's getting more and more difficult to find new talent, especially in trades. They've also done a lot of "cost cutting" in the music program to the extent the high school band doesn't know how to play the National Anthem!
I have read in the local weekly paper many letters from enraged parents regarding these cutbacks.
What makes matters worse is the the sports teams ask for and get pretty much what they want???????????????
Now I'm not suggesting.................
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I amassed a few varsity letters in sports, and it was an important part of my education. But, that was in a school district that stressed academics, and required us to carry around a sign off sheet to every teacher the day before every event that let them check off that we were: up to date on homework, had a passing grade, were participating in discussions, and exhibiting good citizenship (courteous, on time, etc.).
I think we as a society are grossly over enamored with sports, to the detriment of many other things that are truly more important in the long run.
We aren't turning out enough engineers or scientists, or kids with enough basic skills to learn how to work. And it isn't just isolated to the public schools.
I had a kid working for me on a survey crew, who after twelve years of Catholic School, didn't know where east was at 7:00, (sun still touching the horizon), or how to multiply 1.2 by 6. The scarier part was he knew that 6 times 12 was 72, and didn't know how to shift the decimal.
I guess the reason for the post more than anything is that I see the awesome pieces that these folks create in here on Knots and wonder why more young folks wouldn't want to do the same.
Back when I was in school we had a great shop program and it received a lot more resources than most of these programs receive today. I kick myself in the butt (not easy to do at this age!) that I didn't take advantage of if way beck when.
Then I hear older folks in the trades lament that they can't find good apprentices to work with, and I emphasize WITH.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I taught "wood shop" for almost 20 years before the local board cut all the programs. To answer the original question it goes back to a judgement call on the intent of the students to use any tool as a weapon. In a rather tense moment in my 19th year I had two students after lunch (and doing whatever) got into a verbal argument. Before I could get there to stop it one took a skew off the lathe and tried to stab the other one. I managed to get between them and other students dragged back the one without the skew and kept him from grabbing another one. I managed to talk to the student with the skew into dropping it. By the time he dropped it we had the School Resource Officer come in and he really didn't help with his cocky attitude. Luckily the student did not attempt to pick it back up and the cop handcuffed him. It was a big deal at the school board meeting with lots of emotional people but they ended up expelling the one with the skew and the other student was placed in an altenative program. Wasn't the only fight I ever broke up but was the only one where a tool was used as a weapon really.
Now why they closing Industrial Arts programs? Very complex reasons overall but the kids are the big losers in the deal. We cut them all mostly because the parents of my "shop rats" wouldn't show up to stop the cuts. Band parents and art parents did show up, so we are graduating a lot of very talented singers, dancers, and artists that are working minimum wage jobs because they have no marketable skills really. So the last 11 years I have taught Video Productions to what would've been "shop rats" a generation earlier. Luckily I see the same kinds of success with these kids and in some ways I enjoy it more, but I do miss having that big shop at school.
We could debate the cuts on here forever, but bottom line is that most are gone.
Bob,
I teach here in NH, the seacoast. I understand the frustration with the lack of "shop" type programs. There are many reasons why they are underfunded, and other things are funded perfectly well. Among the most difficult to deal with is the requirements put in place by "No child left behind" law, the federallies put in place about 6-7 years ago. The long and short of it is that if your "test" scores do not improve year to year, you risk getting less from the federallies...and the improvement needs to be every distinct group, not just the whole group. So locally the pressure is on to use what funds are available to make sure the "everyone" improves. This means that we "need" more administrators to assess, and specialists to collect and analyze data, more time and training to "prepare" to prepare the kids to take the tests. So more resources go to things that don't actually "teach" kids the basics let alone things that "are not required". All of this and the state and locals can't seem to agree on what is an "adequate" education and how to fund it anyway. And we all know that the federallies don't keep their end of the bargain anyway (partial funding for federally required special education programs...less than 40% funding I think - funds that the locals pick up the cost on).
So the local school board and administration will always respond with the "we don't have enough to do the basics, how can we do the extra? response.
Wow, I am teetering on a very tall soapbox, maybe time to watch a Maloof interview and calm down...only one more day until summer vacation...only one more day until summer vacation...only one more day until summer vacation...only one more day until summer vacation...
Donkey
Our education system is a huge soapbox issue for me. I have put two kids through the public school system here in Western Washington state. If I had to do it over again, I'd sacrifice what I had to, to put them through private schools because the public schools are THAT BAD here and I regret putting my kids through these schools with the expectation they'd learn something. I asked both my kids when they were done with K-12, which teacher made the most difference to them when you were going through school. In my day, I had a handful of teachers who were special, teachers that cared and made that difference to me. Both my kids looked at me as if I had asked them if they'd ever met a Martian. They didn't have a clue what I was asking. No offense to any teachers out there, but the problem seems to me, most teachers these days, DON'T TEACH. What they do, is they present material, oh yeah, they attend lots of teachers workshops too. If the kids 'get it', fine, if not, the teachers I've seen don't have the time or inclination to try to reach those kids and help them understand ANYTHING because hey, they have (pick your excuse) too many kids, not enough time, they don't get paid enough, blah blah blah... That's all I'll say on this, I'm sure I've already offended enough people.Jeff
donkey, jeff & woodwish,
I sympathize (not sure if that's the right word) with you folks very much.
It seeme to me that todays mentality, at least as far as the federallies are concerned, is to create jobs for the sake of jobs, and that's not just in academia. The end result being a diluted product and a stressful environment for those like you who truly care.
Another aspect I see is that parents expect teachers to babysit their children as they are too busy. Since the age of both parents working what are children to do?
Good grief, let's get back to woodworking!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,I see it like this..."FIX my kids when I drop them off at the school door...but don't offend them with your ideals, religious inclinations, make them work to hard, make them feel that they are not the most important people on the earth ('cause I tell them they are), make them feel good when they do just the tiniest little thing and tell them it's OK when things are bad...but please FIX whatever I have done to them to make them selfish, arrogant, disrespectful and close minded...but please fix them, I will be back at 3:30."A lot of entitlement also, very little work ethic.I can see what others think about the belly-aching that some teachers do, and to a point it is true about some, but...As an administrator that worked here once said..."you cant make chicken salad with chicken sh@t"Donkey
Point well taken. It's not just the schools. That's a fact. Parenting has reached an all time low as well. Some folks do a spectacular job, but it's rare, and that's across the econonic spectrum as well. Poor parenting isn't a function of economic status.
Love the chicken salad analogy.....that's a gem...
Jeff
Yup,
Chicken salad, one of my favorites, but we have to teach the ones who show up - good, bad, willing and unwilling, you get what you put in.
Donkey
If you want an education, on todays education: Go to youtube, and enter teacher or professor in the search.
I hope I never catch any of my kids or friends kids, behaving like those little s***heads. If it is one of mine, (doubtful, but I had a terrible stage), they will be apologizing to the teacher at the least.
The older brother let both of his two drop out, and start community college. It makes a lot of difference, to be in an population of people who are there to learn, and have made a decision on their own to be there, and frequently are spending their own money.
I have seen on Youtube and real life. Yes, I agree, once education becomes a paid endeavor, attitude definitely change...mom and dad (who pay the bill expect the appropriate attitude and performance) or the kids who have seen the light or at least the bottom of dad's size eleven. The perception that public education is free is a very dangerous idea, it is not free and there is a growing percentage who feel that they are entitled to use how they see fit...sometimes to learn, sometimes to keep the kids out of the house or off of the streets.
Donkey
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled