AWFS: A Super-Glue for Furniture Makers?
Jul 26, 2013
You just drip a bit of Nexabond onto one part of the joint, in this case the tenon, and then join the parts. No spreading the glue around, none needed in the mortise, and no squeezeout. And the joint is fully cured in 5 minutes.
Bioformix has a big group of investors convinced that their new formulations of cyano-acrylate glues, called Nexabond 2500, will change woodworking. And yesterday, company president Adam Malofsky finalized his first retail deal, with Woodcraft, he told me.
According to Malofsky and his team of chemists, existing CA glues were formulated for metal, but his guys have unlocked the chemistry to slow down the drying properties. Until now the instant versions were mostly the realm of turners, making quick repairs. Nexabond on the other hand comes with three different set times, in versions labeled S, M, and L, for slow, medium, and long.
They recommend Nexabond 2500L for furnituremaking, as it boasts the longest open time, 20 minutes, and working time, another 5 to 10 minutes for most woods. Along with peppering the Bioformix team with a dozen tough questions, I had a chance to see the stuff in action.
They actually had a few dry-fit tables on hand, taken from a FWW article, just to prove to us how well the stuff works. Granted the table was pretty basic in design, and didn’t require a ton of adjustment time, but their demonstrator only had to drip a bit of the stuff on a tenon, knock it home with a mallet, and throw a Quick Grip clamp across the assembly to make sure it didn’t move for 5 more minutes.
Done, cured, with no squeezeout, and as strong as any other glue, the company says. Even if you have squeezeout, finishes soak right into it. Five minutes later, the whole table was together and done.
I explained that more complex glue-ups would require more working time, and they promised on the spot to formulate an XL version with a working time of 20 minutes (after the joints are together).
For now, you should look for the current versions coming soon to Woodcraft and elsewhere. Because you use so little, a 4-oz bottle of Nexabond ($16.50 at retail) is equal to 16 oz. of yellow glue.
There is a lot more to know about these innovative glues. Go to Bioformix.com for more info.
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You just drip a bit of Nexabond onto one part of the joint, in this case the tenon, and then join the parts. No spreading the glue around, none needed in the mortise, and no squeezeout. And the joint is fully cured in 5 minutes.
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Nexabond is pricier than yellow glue, but not as much as you might think, because of how little you need in comparison.
Comments
Sounds great. But what sort of testing have they done on strength and brittleness?
Sounds great. But what sort of testing have they done on strength and brittleness?
I'm not sure here. What does it add to my work? I'm not waiting for this kind of new stuff.
Looks like Malofsky and his team of chemists found a listening ear but not in my shop.
I thought that when wood glue was applied to the joint, it caused it to swell, adding strength to the joint. How does that work with super glue?
Probably Nexabond could be applied to one area of a joint while traditional adhesive was applied to the remainder of the joint, allowing the fast curing Nexabond to act as a "clamp" while the traditional adhesive sets up/cures. I've used this technique with slow curing cyanoacrylate quite successfully with no compromise in joint strength and no need for long-term clamping.
This might sell for production pieces and shops but I don't see
It catching on in quality shops that create heirloom pieces.
If the glue is only on a small portion of surface area, it is hard to see how it can as strong as conventional glues.
Puhleeze!!! Go ahead a grab a bottle if you've got a $20 burning a whole in your pocket, but I doubt Asa is about to throw away his PVA just yet... woodworking is not changing over this! CA has been used for years, and comes in formulations with varying thickness and set times (although all very short). Bottom line CA is a trade-off and is very difficult to reliably use as one would PVA - it's much easier to use too much or not enough resulting in a weaker joint. Also it's very expensive, and if you honestly believe that "4 ozs will equal 16" of yellow glue in your shop, you probably also think you can spend your way out of debt. Notoriously brittle with poor shear strength and short shelf life, it's fine for weak materials, like balsa models and ok for quick fixes, but let them show you how to make a table top with it. FWW had a good write up on glues/strengths some time ago. Check it out.
I'd try this on a project or two if inexpensive samples were available.
Time will tell if it's cost-effective and efficient for the hobbyist like me as compared to a production shop.
Will this product stand the test of time? My experience with similar products demonstrated glue failure after a few years.
It's Adam at Bioformix. Nice to see the blog and some comments!
A few points - first, we do cover the whole sea, but with far less adhesive. In fact 80% to 90% less. We did not develop this alone - we worked with Innerwood & Company in Cincinnati by putting their craftsmen in our lambs and our chemists in their shop to develop this. It's all their inspiration that makes Nexabond developed by craftsmen for craftsmen.
Second, we use tight joints so we do not need water swell. That alone provides some self alignment and clamping, but clamping is still recommended where you, the real expert, feel its needed.
Third, we provide working time once the parts are togethe, up to ten minutes now. We will be working in a 20 minute version.
Fourth, the fast strength build and lack of water and squeeze out drastically speeds up and simplifies assembly. Again, you are all the experts, but our team who are among the ORIGINAL developers if many adhesives, including super glue, have tested this extensively, including accelerated aging at high and low temperatures under a wide range if humidity conditions.
Fifth, we work on any wood (even teak) under any himidity with no primers. Primers are problematic in that just a bit too much and you weaken the bond. We employ the woods chemistry to activate.
Sixth, this is just the start. Our new malonate chemistry for 2014 acts much like cyanoacrylates in cure but can be used in outdoor and extreme conditions, is biodegradable and biocompatible and a green and clean chemistry. In fact, we are developing programs with FPL to make room temperature curing, non-formaldehyde, isocyanate free, plywood, MDF and particleboards that cure up to four times faster. That's great for the environment and woodworking.
Bottom line - if you want the same performance and to put out pieces faster and with a lot less hassle, try Nexabond. You're all the experts. Judge it in use for yourself. Happy to answer any questions. Our families believe in it. We hope you'll try it and become a believer too!
I am sorry to correct you, but CA glues were not developed for metal, as with many things, it was developed by the military, as a quick "instant suture" for battlefield wounds until the proper medical attention was available. The first time I saw it was in Southeast Asia and it did help some from bleeding out. It worked great for that, but I would not trust it in any form for long term joinery. I could be wrong but.............
It's Adam again at Bioformix - someone asked about time. Cyanoacrylates have been used in metals, plastics and woods for 50 years successfully. Failure is often because its may be misused, but its not intentional. The CA's marketed today in woodworking are not formulated and made by the companies themselves. They are not even formulated for wood, but for metals, temporary bonding and general simple repairs. It's z billion dollar business, not a curiosity.
We formulated this with a fine wood shop for wood and only wood to other woods and many other substrates to wood. That's a big difference. We've done a created aging and never seen a failure, but to see some anecdotal failure by using the wrong product in the wrong places tiered to the wrong market is unfortunate. We just have to deal with it.
As for primers, my father Bernard Malofsky, PhD developed many of them for INDUSTRIAL use. Use too much, which is easy and you get short chain polymers that like a short chain garden hose untangles for easier failure. Without primer, you get very very long, well entangled garden hoses.
As for moisture degrading cyanoacrylates, that simply an industrial legend. Chemically, that not possible. Exposure to a hot water soak swells the wood, and can swell the pvs, the ca or anything other adhesive and if the wood swells and shrinks over and over, failure can occur. CA's are used in many 50 year old industrial applications and none have failed due to simple high humidities. It's likely a misapplication of the wrong adhesive the wrong way. I've done it. We all have done it, but CA does not degrade in and of itself in water.
Phelan, that's not true. It's part of the unfortunate misinformation that causes pr
Phelan, that's not true. It's part of the unfortunate misinformation that causes problems.
Harry Coover invented cyanoacrylates monomers in about 1945 for Eastman as part if the drive to develop synthetic plastics during and after World War Two . Last he died after recently winning a Presidential medal for Innovation. The product then was known as Eastman 910.
During the Vietnam War, soldiers discovered that water (really the base in the water) cured the glue and so your body is filled with water. A major would could sealed messily in the field so a soldier could be brought in for surgery alive. T
Today Johnson and Johnson markets the surgical CA as Dermabond and in Walgreens as Luquid Bandage. My father, Betnie, worked with Coover and enabled Dermab
...and enabled Dermabond. In fact, Bernie is the father if most if today's modern CA chemistry, am
Information via Google on Harry Coover and Super Glue's history
https://www.google.com/search?q=harry+coover&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari
Some info on Bernie Malofsky...
https://www.google.com/search?q=bernard+malofsky&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari
Some very basic info on Cyanoacrylates...a major application is aquarium assembly...lotsa water there all the time!
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanoacrylate
I stand corrected, but that is what the medics told us, and I agree it was a little messy, but it saved a great many lives, and thanks to Harry for mine!
I make up my Windsor chair stickback dry first then a touch of cyanate on every joint does the job.
what is the shelf after opening all the super glues I have used dry up after a month or so.
I can't believe all of the "naysayers" who haven't tried this product or seen any results from independent testing. I bet the old hide gluers said the same thing about the "modern" glues that most people use now. Why not wait and/or try it before you relegate it to the trash bin. Maybe it isn't worth it, maybe it will find and niche market, or maybe it will change woodworking. Only time will tell.
The issue with CA glue as I understad it, is the glue bond is very strong and fast acting. The big question is when the strong bond is subject to shock in can fail. The strength is in holding the pieces together whne force is applied in an attempt to separate them at an angle of 180 degrees, i.e. pulling them apart. If lateral force is applied and a shock is applied there is failure. Also, with quick setting times any spills or splatter that gets on your hands can seal you skin to the surface, your other had, your project or any other surface in your workshop. Using gloves will be your only protection. I understand the CA glues were used to seal wounds.
I used CA glues in building my miniature wooden ships. The fumes impacted my lungs so now whenever I have to use it I need a well ventilated workshop and can't be around it very long. So, does this new stuff have the same fumes? Also I have used "a drop to serve as a clamp while the yellow glue dries" --a bit messy, but effective. What I haven't seen addressed is the strength of the glue compared to the PVA's. Does this glue become stronger than the wood to which it is applied?
Our are spot on Phelan - some if those medics got rich post war. Most importantly, they saved lives. The key point you make is that innovation can come from anywhere! No PhD required - just common sense. I'm a PhD and my always tells me I have no common sense...
The 1937 Noble Laureate in Medicine said it best:
"Innovation is seeing what everyone else has seen, but thinking what no else had thought"
27ford! It's Adam at Bioformix.
Shelf life unopened at about 70f is generally two years or more.
Opened, but closed well in a quality package upright should be a year of more for our product. We have done opened bottles almost two years old in the lab. There are lots
I'd refrigerate ANY adhesive. Why? Any reactions that are bad can double for every 15 degrees F. So keep it cool for best shelf life. As for a water based adhesive, never let it freeze. For urethanes, beware of moisture contamination in a sealed container. Water reacts leaving a gas that can blow up the container!
...there's lots of poor CA packages. Hit submit too soon!
Adam at Bioformix. The traditional CA's mismarketed as wood adhesives are generally brittle and in industry are at times used as temporary adhesives for example in CNC machining. Rap the table, pop off the part.
Our Nexabond series are designed for wood and do not simply shatter on dropping. Try it, wait half an hour and try to bust it. In many of our tests, we are stronger than white glue and always stronger than the wood.
Remember - tight joints with Nexabond!
Adam again - no major fumes, but with any adhesive just because you smell nothing does not mean its safe. Also, all people are different. Finally, spreading any glue over a broad, large area can increase exposure! So be careful no matter what with all adhesives, sealants and coatings.
As for ours, the odor is moderate to low. Our 2014 green high performance malonate products, which will have exterior use, will have virtually no odor as the components boil at over 450f.
If a joint is well made then the strength of a glue is almost of no importance. Where I went to school they still use white glue and have been using for about 30 years. That glue has stood the test of time.
Waterpenny is right for low viscosity CA's. We are 5000 cps, like ketchup sorta do we don't run. Splatter is very difficult to accomplish.
You need very little glue, so of course be careful.
If you glue yourself - use warm, soapy water to swell your skin and rock back and forth slowly to force a slow peel failure. Your skin in water doubles in volume - more than enough to in peel force a failure to free yourself.
A dab on you can be wiped off quickly, but running under water will over activate it, creating a weak polymer that will wear off like a scab in day or three.
You don't address the two most pressing questions:
1) How long does the joint last?
2) is it at all flexible? CA glue is brittle, which makes it great for mending teacups but not good for a Windsor Chair. They have probably addressed this in their development, but it's not mentioned.
Godzilla - I do address those points in earlier replies. The joint should last longer than the wood and it has formulated flex within the adhesive matrix. The flex being in the matrix stops cracks and absorbs energy. As I said earlier, there are 50 year old wood and metal joints out there. Our formulas are stronger in general than white glues. CA holds aquariums together, so the water degrades CA wives tales are unfounded.
How does ambient temperature affect curing time?
I live in the desert, and often have to work in 80-85F temps, or in the 60-65F range in the winter.
PVA glues cure much faster (less open time/working time) in heat, which can cause a problem with large assemblies.
Also, has it been tested with veneer at all?
So here's how this works. A couple of people who know how to build and grow a business get together with a couple of engineers, presumably tops in their field. Like the "ORIGINAL" developers of Super Glue. The engineers design, develop and prototype something new. The management puts together a company in such a way that they look like a Great Investment. Capitalists invest in the company allowing the prototype to grow into a product. At this point, the company launches a press-release blitz and tries to raise as much free and carefully selected paid advertizing as they can to create a buzz. The product goes into production and if at all successful or promising, Woodcraft sells a lot of it, Fine Woodworking gets a new advertiser, the investors sell the company to a larger one and retire or if they are still young, take that money and try to do it again. Remember: "money, money, money, money, money makes the world go 'round."
That said, I use a lot of different adhesives for a lot of different purposes from luthiery to epoxying bolts into concrete and I will examine the pros and cons of this new adhesive and see if and where it will work for me. If it proves superior to another glue in real life, then I'll use it. If not, I won't. It's certainly too early to form preconceptions about it. To those too conservative to try it, I would suggest that white glue is also a very modern adhesive, compared to hide glue, for example. Or pitch.
And yes; I, too am interested in how long a chair will hold together with the typical 250 pound adult male American sitting down, sliding forward, sliding back, standing, sitting, standing, sitting, standing ...
JTSteve - great question! It's the number one thing our professional craftsmen we had in our labs talk about.
First, there is an effect, but not major. For your range you may not even notice anything.
Second, the chemistry of the wood dominates working time and cure time. We work in any wood and most wood composites under any humidity.
Third, humidity on certain woods can have a strong effect.
The bottom line is Nexabond 2500 cures on all woods under any humidity within a very broad temperature range. We strongly recommend you test on your favorite woods in your shop. You in the end are the expert!
Interesting to read about, but I'm not going to abandon my hide glue until I see a real reason to. It's totally safe, it has no dangerous fumes, it's still holding together furniture, including chairs, that have been in constant use for several hundred years, it washes off easily even after its cured, it doesn't interfere with stains or finishes, it doesn't creep. You can even get it today in liquid form, no glue pot. What's not to like?
I can see where production shops that want to get parts glued quickly to get to the next steps,and where they can machine parts to the very close tolerances that this glue apparently requires, might find a use for it. But for the hobbyist, especially one who doesn't always get micro-tight tolerances in his joints and for whom waiting overnight for a joint to cure isn't an isue, I'm not sure I see the benefits of this glue.
NWIslander makes some great points, but I few need tweaking. First, hide glues are great, add terrific authentic historical character and perform well. Everyone should use what they want and have confidence in.
Now, the correction. We do not need micro-tolerances. Never said that. We did say you need tight joints with some solid contact. Off a mill or two is fine, but the gaps for glues that count on evaporating water are not useful with our Nexabond adhesives. Finally, most wood workers, even my own poor skills, can easily achieve the tolerances required.
As for the hobbyist - everyone is different, but we have many customers who love wood working, work long hours and honestly don't like watching the glue dry. The satisfaction of finishing a piece in a day, a weekend or a few hours is to many far more satisfying than the multiple-generational cathedral experience. Their skills and pieces can be just as complex and beautiful.
Small shops? At AWFS, it was a thrill watching David Heim turn ten bowls from wood to assembled to turned in three days. I don't know much, but our small shops are trying to make a living in tough times. Our customers love turning out twice the product in the same time and making more money to pay the bills. If a small shop does not want the money, then go for slow. Still, without confidence in the glue, you should not use it. There a millions if assemblies that used CA that are still holding strong. That's a long time and under much bigger loads than a man in a chair.
Finally, a last perspective. It was very satisfying today to finish building 20 of the FWW tables referenced in only ten minutes each for assembly, including the ganged top, and then donate them all to Habitat for Humanity.
So, to each his own - I just don't think slow is very satisfying. I don't want to be that guy...
I have no doubt CA is strong and can last a long time. I learned to use it to repair rickety chairs that most people have some of. I expect they will stay solid for a lifetime. Wouldn't do it for a fine antique, but it does allow the chair to be made solid without disassembly and without much labor.
Something that really concerns me is how to dismantle a joint. Theoretically, acetone dissolves the glue. The reality is it evaporates before it has a chance. So if somebody puts their big foot down too hard on a turned stretcher, and breaks it off at the leg, how am I going to fix it?
CA burns my nose and eyes. Can't stay around it very long.
I am learning more about hide glue, and the more I learn, the better I like it. It is strong, long lasting and reversible.
As someone north of the border, will this be available inCanada? Always appreciate a time saver.
Kinlossian,
It's Adam. Yes, Canada will be very soon. Lots if labeling laws to comply with in many countries. We hope to be ready within the next 30 to 60 days, but the approval must come. We've generated huge interest from your beautiful country!
I have been using CA for a long time (15 years or whenever it first appeared), however, my experience has been in model railroading, for which it is a definite asset for very small work.
However, it is brittle when cured at all speeds and would make me nervous using it on furniture. It also can be dicey to apply. Forget gluing your clamps to your workpiece, how about gluing your fingers? It is actually dangerous because once it gets a grip (in a very few seconds), you have a new appendage. One more thing. it has a fairly short shelf life, no matter how well it is capped (leave it open and it's gone).
Building bench-work (frame) for my railroad, and in all of my furniture making, Conventional glues work best, Titebond being my preferred.
Oh, and I wonder what sjama6678 really thinks, deep down?
Will Nexabond work on biscuits?
This sounds like an interesting product.
Will it be available in the UK at all?
I don't know about my Furniture building but this would certainly come in handy with all the prop building I do. It'll help speed up the creation of mould masters no end. Actually, as I type this I can also see uses in jig building too.
I'd love to get hold of a bottle of this stuff and give it a test or two and then make a decision based on personal experience rather than anecdotal evidence.
Bob Cupp! Thanks for writing.
A few things are noted in my earlier posts you mention. First, we are not at all similar to the cure speeds of the traditionally mis-marketed metal bonding CA's. We have three "fixture times" depending upon the wood species and to much lesser degree humidity, roughly 30 to 60 seconds (Nexabond 2500S), 1.5 to 4 minutes (Nexabond 2500M) and 5 to 10 minutes (Nexabond 2500L). You use tighter joints and you need far less clamp time and clamping period. You are your own best expert, so use your own judgement in the end. There are lots of great wood adhesives and each will serve you differently.
As for sticking other things, that can happen, but you need 90% less adhesive generally than with white glues or anything else water based. Squeeze out is virtually eliminated. Accordingly, it's unlikely that you would glue the clamps to anything unless something spilled. At 5000 cps, that's unlikely.
Most of the current widely available CA's have shelf issues because their stabilization and packaging choice protocols are poor. WE have bottles around for over a year opened and they are juts fine. Closed, we are at over two years. Why? We are the originators of modern cyanoacrylate chemistry (our guys are pretty old!) and Bernie Malofsky, former Loctite Chief Scientist and VP of R&D and NBD is the current top living expert after the passing of originator Harry Coover.
user-2594744, thanks you also for writing!
Yes, Nexabond is great for biscuits. You want some in the joint and on the biscuit and you will want tighter fitting slots. Do not use pre-glued biscuits - those adhesives will provide a weak point.
Any other similar type of joint will work as well, from dowels to custom joints.
Just KEEP IT TIGHT!
Adam
NikonD80 - Congrats on your new Prince....
We will be selling in Europe. Cyanoacrylates are already REACH approved. It's just going to take a couple of months.
Write to us at our website via the Nexabond store and we will be sure to let you know when it's ready! Anyone you like to buy from in Europe? We listen to our customers ideas!
Adam
You'r finally catching up to ship modelers who have been using CA glues for years on wood and other materials with the same questions. Life time of joint is an unanswered question.
Often used as a "tacking medium" with glues for hard to clamp joints. There are numerous formulations of CA with different properties. Check out there various web sites and model supply vendors..
Waiting for a responce to andybarss' post. I cant find any tech data.
Adam here at Bioformix - SDS and Technical data Sheets will be up within 24-48 hours for some data. It will be posted with the products at the store.
I tried the medium to to fix a broken bowl. I had some squeeze out and found it difficult to remove. Is there a solvent? What's the recommended approach to remove squeeze out without weakening the bond?
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